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4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

archaeologymag.com

41–50 of 62 posts

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#41
post #3

Entire civilization flourished for 2000 years and then disappeared without any clue why. I have a pet theory about Indus Valley script - inscriptions on the seals are so short and unique because they are just name signatures, to stamp other objects. Having to be durable, they were the only inscribed objects that survived.

> Entire civilization flourished for 2000 years and then disappeared without any clue why.

I think it's well understood that upliftment/desertification of the lower Indus valley resulted in many of the rivers the civilization was built around drying up.

Ancient DNA studies (Reich et. al) have shown a scattering of Indus peoples in all directions after that - including back to the southern Iranian plateau where they came from originally, and across the Indian subcontinent, forming a substratum of various populations across South and Central Asia.

They also reverted to smaller scale settlements, although with echoes of their previous material culture, eventually merging with later migrants and pre-existing indigenous populations.

After that, they very likely played a significant role in the second great urbanization of the Indian subcontinent [1], which took place in the first millennium BCE in the Gangetic plain, and also possibly in the parallel development of Iranian civilization. It is thought they were the original inventors of the famous Indo-Iranian oven known the tandoor, which seems to have remigrated back into South Asia long after the Indus people took it to Central Asia.

So while their original cities were abandoned, their influence was felt far and wide in the ancient world.

1. The first being the Indus Valley Civilization itself a few millenia earlier.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#42
post #3

Entire civilization flourished for 2000 years and then disappeared without any clue why. I have a pet theory about Indus Valley script - inscriptions on the seals are so short and unique because they are just name signatures, to stamp other objects. Having to be durable, they were the only inscribed objects that survived.

They didn't disappear into thin air. Their culture syncretised with that of the incoming (or invading, depending on who you ask) Indo-Aryans, they moved southeast into the furthest bits of the Indian peninsula. The strongest hypothesis is that the IVC language, culture, and genetics is Dravidian, and the bulk of Dravidian culture today descends from the IVC.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#43
post #13

"Trade practices show a similar pattern. Indus seals, used for business and administration, turned up in common homes across the city. Archaeologists did not find evidence showing rulers controlled access to these objects. Standardized weights and measures spread throughout the region as well, helping create consistent trade practices." I've done a lot of reading on this particular subject and I think the "stateless…

> Someone was obviously "in charge" lol

I don’t find that obvious from what you’ve described. Agreeing on weights and measures is well within plausibility of a society where power was pretty evenly distributed. I don’t remember Graeber and Wengrow describing it as a stateless utopia, they were a lot more academic than their detractors suggest in the usual caricatures. Is there any more evidence you’ve read about that supports this conclusion?

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#45
post #29
post #13

"Trade practices show a similar pattern. Indus seals, used for business and administration, turned up in common homes across the city. Archaeologists did not find evidence showing rulers controlled access to these objects. Standardized weights and measures spread throughout the region as well, helping create consistent trade practices." I've done a lot of reading on this particular subject and I think the "stateless…

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> A lot of anthropology unfortunately is bullshit.

More so than every other field?

We are in an era of quackery and whatever ones view, there seems to be something supporting it.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#46
post #27
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like really, think about it. These weights were very precise. And they had to be, because "weight" was basically equivalent to "money." So there had to be a standard, and that standard had to be enforced when the weights were produced. And the weights had to remain trustworthy as they were distributed elsewhere for use in the trade. Someone was obviously "in charge" lol I disagree. You seem to imply that the standa…

It's exactly the opposite. With languages/standards, both parties has incentives to have mutual understanding so they don't need anyone else to enforce symbol equality. But with these weights, or money in general, there's huge incentive to deceive each other, so someone has to enforce the equality. That someone can be the parties themselves, but if one party lack the ability, it necessitated the creation of third-par…

You're talking about a time pre-capitalism. "Incentives" don't map to a stable cross-community market. We should talk about "reasons," not "incentives." A great reason not to try to deceive about weights is it would make nobody wants to trade with you when it gets out that you're dishonest. It may have also been considered deeply unethical in their society to do so, there doesn't need to be any enforcement mechanism beyond that for it to manifest across the entire society in an archaeological record.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#47
post #30
post #6

It's a pleasant finding but not surprising. In all the excavations done over time in indus valley, they never found any weapons or any signs of war. I have this book with pretty cool illustrations if anyone wants a light read on this topic - https://www.amazon.com/dp/014345532X?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_... I am not related to the author in anyway. i heard about this book on a podcast and bought it.

I suspect that’s some noble savage mythologizing. Many Harrapan weapons have been found: https://www.allsubjectjournal.com/assets/archives/2015/vol2i...

Yes, they are exaggerations, similar things have been said about the Minoans. It's still true AFAIK that these societies were much less militaristic than the ones that followed them.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think use of consistent weights and measures implies someone being in charge of those weights and measures. I also don't think someone being in charge of weights and measures implies that same person/group being in charge of anything else. The latter feels fairly obvious, for the former I imagine some generally agreed upon method for creating new weights and measures given some existing ones for calibration p…

Ah, a town with no greed. Everyone voluntarily did the right thing.

No greed whatsoever? Unlikely. But less? Possibly, why not? There's no reason to believe greed cannot fluctuate across societies. Quite the opposite, I'd expect fluctuations along any given dimension by default.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#49
post #13

"Trade practices show a similar pattern. Indus seals, used for business and administration, turned up in common homes across the city. Archaeologists did not find evidence showing rulers controlled access to these objects. Standardized weights and measures spread throughout the region as well, helping create consistent trade practices." I've done a lot of reading on this particular subject and I think the "stateless…

> Like really, think about it. These weights were very precise. And they had to be, because "weight" was basically equivalent to "money." So there had to be a standard, and that standard had to be enforced when the weights were produced. And the weights had to remain trustworthy as they were distributed elsewhere for use in the trade. Someone was obviously "in charge" lol

Not really - a trust based system would still function very well. The same reason why hawala networks and Hofläden still persist today.

Cheaters are punished by societal ostracization. Very common in Asia even today.

Re: 4K years ago, Mohenjo-daro grew more equal over time

#50
post #38
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did some work for Halliburton in a past life. Most of the people selling LNG for instance, do not have any control over the definition of a "cubic meter". Even so, none of them cheat, because the US for example, very much does have its own definition of a cubic meter and it isn't going to pay you a penny more, nor a penny less, than what that cubic meter is worth. All that to say, you could probably try to cheat th…

The trade actually involved different measurements. The shekel (silver, commodity-money) was weighed by the Sumerian purchaser and then given to the trader in Dilmun (he would literally have a bag full of weights and silver) The Meluhha commodities themselves were measured seemingly with the Meluhhan weights. So the units went from Indus -> Dilmun in Indus quantities, and were purchased and verified that way. The Sum…

This is exactly what I was saying.

It doesn't matter if you measure LNG in litres, gallons, or cubic inches. The market is going to pay you the precise amount for whatever you delivered measured in cubic meters. So what you measure in is irrelevant. Or more precisely, only relevant insofar as you want to have some idea how much you are going to be paid when you reach the market. And even then, it's only relevant to you. The market doesn't care what you measure in, because the market measures what you deliver in cubic meters. And the market has its own definition of "cubic meter".

So market participants, no matter where they may be, are incentivized to ensure whatever unit they're measuring out for delivery in will relate to the "cubic meter" as defined by the customer in a precise and verifiable way. If not, they could lose money. Thus, every freight measurement standard, would, again, effectively be set by the customer. Because no matter what units you deliver in, s/he is only paying you for the amount measured in his/her own measurement standard. So your standard has to conform to that standard in a fashion that is well defined, consistent, and well understood by you.

In ancient terms, this means the trader in Mohenjo-daro would have calculated that conversion factor out in a precise fashion. So they would walk around Mohendro-daro with a standard weight for measurement that was based on what they would expect to happen in Sumer. All the other traders in Mohendro-daro would eventually discover the same conversion factor. So everyone lands on the same weight for measurement, but no one collaborated. Because everyone, (every trader anyway), only cares what they can get for that weight in Sumer. It's not that everyone uses Sumer's units. It's that Sumer's units define what everyone's understanding of their own unit is through trade.

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