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Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

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Re: Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

#41

Post by faitswulff »

crazylogger wrote: post #36
noon-raccoon wrote: post #29

If you don't know what is Pinyin I googled it for you (I didn't know what it is): Pinyin is a system for writing Mandarin Chinese sounds using the Latin alphabet. Pinyin is commonly used for learning Chinese pronunciation and for typing Chinese characters.

> It might seem weird for us to teach beginners Python, knowing that they’ll then have agents output other, faster languages. I see an analogy here with Chinese: Many people don’t realize this, but children in China first learn Latin characters, which they use to spell out Chinese phonetically, using a system called “pinyin.” They then use their knowledge of Latin characters to learn Chinese characters, whose pronunc…

Pinyin is widely used, but pinyin’s primacy is oversold. Chinese texts start with teaching Chinese characters - many are recognizable to children from daily exposure to begin with, so they don’t need the pinyin. Pinyin only comes in when the character is genuinely unknown.

Re: Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

#42

Post by nneonneo »

faitswulff wrote: post #41
crazylogger wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It might seem weird for us to teach beginners Python, knowing that they’ll then have agents output other, faster languages. I see an analogy here with Chinese: Many people don’t realize this, but children in China first learn Latin characters, which they use to spell out Chinese phonetically, using a system called “pinyin.” They then use their knowledge of Latin characters to learn Chinese characters, whose pronunc…

Pinyin is widely used, but pinyin’s primacy is oversold. Chinese texts start with teaching Chinese characters - many are recognizable to children from daily exposure to begin with, so they don’t need the pinyin. Pinyin only comes in when the character is genuinely unknown.

Pinyin is also the main way people input Chinese into computers, so it's rather important in that regard.

Re: Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

#43

Post by b40d-48b2-979e »

gbuk2013 wrote: post #33
noon-raccoon wrote: post #2

Python has wonderful set of libraries so it is probably going to stay with us for a while. However, I suspect major takeover by Typescript (despite I like Python more).

I’m a JS/TS dev (and fan) I don’t think either is a replacement for Python. They are not standalone languages but require some runtime to interact with the world (DOM or Node.js etc) which have limited capabilities for interacting with the system - their focus is network services. It’s not that inaccurate to say that JS is just API for a C++ app. :) Now if .NET was still not so embedded in the Windows ecosystem that…

This is a non-sequitur? Python is also not a "standalone language" and requires "some runtime".

Re: Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

#44

Post by xigoi »

1PlayerOne wrote: post #32
kleiba2 wrote: post #21

If we're not writing code by hand anymore anyway, why not skip programming languages altogether and have the AI output machine code right away?

Well you can read python, you can't read machine code...

“Vibe coders” don’t read the code their LLM produces. That’s the whole point.

Re: Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

#45

Post by JCTheDenthog »

gbuk2013 wrote: post #33
noon-raccoon wrote: post #2

Python has wonderful set of libraries so it is probably going to stay with us for a while. However, I suspect major takeover by Typescript (despite I like Python more).

I’m a JS/TS dev (and fan) I don’t think either is a replacement for Python. They are not standalone languages but require some runtime to interact with the world (DOM or Node.js etc) which have limited capabilities for interacting with the system - their focus is network services. It’s not that inaccurate to say that JS is just API for a C++ app. :) Now if .NET was still not so embedded in the Windows ecosystem that…

.NET has had Linux support since 2016 or so. The only major part of .NET that is still stuck in Windows is official UI frameworks from MS, though there are third party frameworks like Avalonia that support Linux.

Re: Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

#46

Post by reuven »

faitswulff wrote: post #41
crazylogger wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It might seem weird for us to teach beginners Python, knowing that they’ll then have agents output other, faster languages. I see an analogy here with Chinese: Many people don’t realize this, but children in China first learn Latin characters, which they use to spell out Chinese phonetically, using a system called “pinyin.” They then use their knowledge of Latin characters to learn Chinese characters, whose pronunc…

Pinyin is widely used, but pinyin’s primacy is oversold. Chinese texts start with teaching Chinese characters - many are recognizable to children from daily exposure to begin with, so they don’t need the pinyin. Pinyin only comes in when the character is genuinely unknown.

I've been taking Chinese lessons for a number of years, and my teacher described her son as learning characters via pinyin. But it's quite possible (even likely) that the common ones don't require pinyin, and/or that I misunderstood how it's used. Nevertheless, even if I pushed the analogy a bit, I still think this might happen as a bridge between learning to code and agentic coding.

Re: Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

#47

Post by JCTheDenthog »

fragmede wrote: post #34
kleiba2 wrote: post #21

If we're not writing code by hand anymore anyway, why not skip programming languages altogether and have the AI output machine code right away?

It's not portable and in today's world, you have x86 and ARM to contend with. My argument is that should make Java the default language for LLM output.

Then you could have it output LLVM IR

Re: Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

#48

Post by kortex »

SwiftyBug wrote: post #24
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

js is a web scripting language that can be strong-armed into running scripts through a runtime. Python is a general development language that can be used to build servers and web pages, but does a lot more besides. They're not really comparable. Having said that - I wouldn't be surprised if Python drifts towards stronger typing, although it will probably remain optional.

To what extent do you see Python drifting toward stronger typing? I ask because after 10 years without touching a single line of Python, I recently worked on a Python code base and I was very positively surprised by the static typing that's available in the language now. Not even necessary to to reach for additional tooling like JS and TS.

Drifting? I think it's there. basedpyright is awesome and super fast. Our latest services are all CI gated by type checking. Early in my career you'd hit so many dumb errors running your code - NoneType, attribute, value, and type errors. I'd say that's been cut over 95%.

Re: Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

#49

Post by gbuk2013 »

b40d-48b2-979e wrote: post #43
gbuk2013 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a JS/TS dev (and fan) I don’t think either is a replacement for Python. They are not standalone languages but require some runtime to interact with the world (DOM or Node.js etc) which have limited capabilities for interacting with the system - their focus is network services. It’s not that inaccurate to say that JS is just API for a C++ app. :) Now if .NET was still not so embedded in the Windows ecosystem that…

This is a non-sequitur? Python is also not a "standalone language" and requires "some runtime".

Sure but that runtime is much more general purpose - JS runtimes are focused on network apps. For example you can write an app like Calibre in Python and QT and it is much lighter than writing something with JS and Electron.

Python is easier to interface with C/C++ libs.

Re: Is Python Becoming Pinyin?

#50

Post by gbuk2013 »

JCTheDenthog wrote: post #45
gbuk2013 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a JS/TS dev (and fan) I don’t think either is a replacement for Python. They are not standalone languages but require some runtime to interact with the world (DOM or Node.js etc) which have limited capabilities for interacting with the system - their focus is network services. It’s not that inaccurate to say that JS is just API for a C++ app. :) Now if .NET was still not so embedded in the Windows ecosystem that…

.NET has had Linux support since 2016 or so. The only major part of .NET that is still stuck in Windows is official UI frameworks from MS, though there are third party frameworks like Avalonia that support Linux.

I am well aware it supports Linux but the vast majority of work still involves being in Windows-only shops which is a circle of hell I am keen to tread only when I absolutely have to. :)
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