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Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

practicalengineering.management

41–50 of 54 posts

Re: Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

#41
post #3

The foundation of this approach is non-controversial: Don’t micromanage, be a good coach, don’t force work to go through the manager, and other simple truths. When I get to the recommendations to “ban” words and force engineers to speak in certain phrases I start having flashbacks to all of the bad managers from the past who read a few management books and thought those tricks were going to make them a good manager.…

Current workplace has cargo-culted this so hard the tickets look like "As a backend foo-server, I need to modify the baz function to create an interface for blargh requests."

Re: Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

#42
post #38

> Leader: "What do you think I'm wondering right now?" (This was D. Marquet's default question) > Leader: "Exactly. Convince me it's the right move." > Leader: "Is it the right thing to do?" I think the general approach is the right one - but I can say, I personally find it extremely annoying if superiors talk like this. For me it comes across as wanting to play mind games or leaving me with an unclear state of respo…

Part of the idea—which requires non-trivial effort from the leaders to build up sufficient trust—is that people should believe that their proposals (for their own work) are accepted by default. People don't have to wait for their idea to be accepted, but they have to communicate enough so that leaders can surface specific issues or mismatches only if they have them.

Re: Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

#43

It's not a framework, and it requires no diagram. It's just trusting and empowering people to do the job, then getting out of their way. People tend to rise to your level of trust. I wrote about this, because after a long career I've come to see that most people have no idea what leadership is, or how it works: https://thinkhuman.com/the-leader-ship/

You might find Jeffrey Pfeffer's Leadership BS: Fixing Workplaces and Careers One Truth at a Time interesting - https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/leadership-bs-fixing-workpl...

Also checkout his other books.

Re: Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

#44
post #40

It's not a framework, and it requires no diagram. It's just trusting and empowering people to do the job, then getting out of their way. People tend to rise to your level of trust. I wrote about this, because after a long career I've come to see that most people have no idea what leadership is, or how it works: https://thinkhuman.com/the-leader-ship/

> People tend to rise to your level of trust. Yes, this, precisely. Most people want to be trusted and given autonomy, and they want to live up to your expectations. There will always be a few who are looking for ways to cheat the system, but they are the exception, not the rule—and the earlier in life you can get to them with a policy of trust and lifting them up, rather than suspicion and tearing them down, the mor…

See Self-Determination Theory (SDT) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination_theory

Re: Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

#45
post #31

i clicked thinking he was mocking this! I hate it so much. no, dude, not everyone can be a leader. no we're not all "leaders"?!?!? come on. this is such a dilution. it screams refusal to take responsibility for anything. diversifying responsibility so that no one is held accountable. Or a massive lack of understanding why and how naturally humans organize using a hierarchical structure. This is a cowardly way of mana…

Read the book. Then if you want go check the sources. See if this nuclear submarine captain is lying or telling the truth.

I am interested but don't have time to read a book. However, I don't think any text can change a person's opinion that is derived from experience.

I think what they're trying to describe is the concept of a person being assigned responsibilities as a follower, and owning that responsibility to the fullest, which is a something I agree with strongly. But that isn't them "leading". Ultimately you can have only one #1 priority, if everyone is leading whose #1 priority do you follow? that's where the informal power structure forms. it has the opposite effect of no one really leading, and everyone just saying they are.

Re: Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

#46

i clicked thinking he was mocking this! I hate it so much. no, dude, not everyone can be a leader. no we're not all "leaders"?!?!? come on. this is such a dilution. it screams refusal to take responsibility for anything. diversifying responsibility so that no one is held accountable. Or a massive lack of understanding why and how naturally humans organize using a hierarchical structure. This is a cowardly way of mana…

I think this is largely off the mark for most engineering teams built around roughly-aligned peers. Sure, if your team is extremely lopsided or unfocused, and e.x. has one person from every discipline, you don't want to cross train everyone into everything else. This is a sign to reorg. Youre not asking your department heads to cross-train to other departments, your PMs/devs to cross train/... But when you have a 1-t…

The problem is you have a very different understanding of what a leader is, than what i think is a more correct definition. a person hoarding information is not a leader. making decisions in a way no one else can reproduce how you made decisions, lacking transparency, making it about your ego is not leadership. matter of fact, that sort of mentality where you have an irreplacable tech lead usually results from poor leadership skills on their part, as were as their people manager's. i.e.: leaders are often actually highly replaceable. For tech lead roles, even in a 2 person team, it would be the one that has more experience, but ultimately they are responsible for their technical leadership, they own outcomes so long as their followers trust them to lead and actually follow their direction. They have to be able to for example reject PRs, but do it in a way that doesn't lost the teams' trust of their competence. If they resign tomorrow, the next guy in the line that is most experienced can take over and lead, perhaps with a different style, but they should spend much time making decisions and leading, and less time hoarding knowledge and doing actual work, making them more replaceable.

> "I have a problem, here is my recommended fix, how does that sound?"

Couldn't agree more, I've lived by this principle myself. leaders are not problem solvers though, a leader gets to reject the really good idea of someone that does come up with a seemingly great idea without letting them down harshly, and also encourage that atmosphere of continuing to suggest solutions. They also set the direction (tactically for technical leaders, and strategically for people leaders) of the team, so that the problems an IC does focus on is aligned with the leaders' priority.

If your engineers are making their own decisions, there is the problem of conflicting changes (even in Git the concept of conflict resolution exists, someone has to decide to merge the changes into main/master after resolving conflicts). There is also the problem of ultimately them spending a lot of time on something, only for that being low priority, or rejected outright because it doesn't make sense strategically, that demoralizes people and creates a terrible atmosphere. A very clear chain of command is important at work as it is on the battlefield. And just as in a battlefield, due to the clarity of that chain of command, a general being killed by the enemy does not decapitate a battalion, the person next in the chain of command takes over. Not only should leaders be replaceable by design, they're often rotated from team to team to ensure such an informal dependency on them never forms.

I think what you're describing to the most part is also the problem I outlined in my first post: The spreading of blame by supposed leaders creating an over dependency on them and credits for work they didn't contribute to much, and creation of actual leaders that end up being irreplaceable because their role wasn't formally designated or acknowledged, but assumed, they're not part of the planned structure of the chain of command.

Re: Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

#47
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the book. Then if you want go check the sources. See if this nuclear submarine captain is lying or telling the truth.

I am interested but don't have time to read a book. However, I don't think any text can change a person's opinion that is derived from experience. I think what they're trying to describe is the concept of a person being assigned responsibilities as a follower, and owning that responsibility to the fullest, which is a something I agree with strongly. But that isn't them "leading". Ultimately you can have only one #1 p…

"Turn the Ship Around" is fantastic. It's a short audio book (about 6.5 hours), if that's more up your alley. Definitely worth a read/listen.

Re: Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

#48
post #38

> Leader: "What do you think I'm wondering right now?" (This was D. Marquet's default question) > Leader: "Exactly. Convince me it's the right move." > Leader: "Is it the right thing to do?" I think the general approach is the right one - but I can say, I personally find it extremely annoying if superiors talk like this. For me it comes across as wanting to play mind games or leaving me with an unclear state of respo…

In the book "Turn the Ship Around", these questions are only temporary, and are part of how the leader transforms the team from traditional Leader-Follower into Leader-Leader.

These questions condition people to think ahead, and eventually present the information unprompted.

This ultimately is part of Intent-Based Leadership, where "followers" present the "leader" with their intentions, information and reasoning - and the "leader" just agrees usually. This in essence transforms "followers" into leaders, since they are the ones deciding what happens, when and why.

Marquet goes so far as to even avoid giving orders, instead just approving or questioning the intentions of his team. It took him a long time to get to that point in reality, but it's a really interesting take on leading highly intelligent, skilled teams.

Re: Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

#49
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the book. Then if you want go check the sources. See if this nuclear submarine captain is lying or telling the truth.

I am interested but don't have time to read a book. However, I don't think any text can change a person's opinion that is derived from experience. I think what they're trying to describe is the concept of a person being assigned responsibilities as a follower, and owning that responsibility to the fullest, which is a something I agree with strongly. But that isn't them "leading". Ultimately you can have only one #1 p…

The audio book is read by the author. Well worth your time imo.

Re: Shift from a leader-follower to a leader-leader approach

#50
post #32
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This approach is great for peacetime and for when the team is already reasonably functional and performing. The really hard leadership problems occur during wartime (the business is in crisis, or shrinking, or responding to a serious competitive threat, or must aggressively cut costs, or must integrate an acquisition, or...) or when the team you have is routinely underperforming at scale. These two situations require…

Wartime is exactly when centralized control breaks down the hardest , because conditions start changing incredibly fast and communication breaks down. There's a reason the phrase is "fog of war" and not "fog of peace"!

Counterpoint: Name a great victory where top leadership mattered very little.

Or, for that matter, a massive upset where top leadership did not truly contribute significantly.

The "fog of war", AFAIK, tends to refer to general breakdown of communication (as you noted), but even fully localized control (terrorist cells, I suppose) are not highly effectual without coordination and informed assessment of the overall picture. The horrific triple (almost quadruple) attacks of 9/11/2001 would have been greatly diminished, probably by 2/3, if the attacks weren't centrally coordinated.

Wartime is exactly when centralized control is most needed.

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