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What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

jacquescorbytuech.com

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Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#41

Post by nixosbestos »

liotier wrote: post #39
pants2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem are apps that do both. For example, I want Uber to notify me when my driver has arrived, but I don't want it to notify me when they have a special 10% discount on my next 5 rides. It's not straightforward to block one but not the other.

The user legitimately considers the application as hostile - hence sandboxing... Notification spam filtering is now the obvious need at the sandbox's edge, with the whole customizable arsenal we have come to expect for our inbound mail. Of course, Google will not cooperate with anything likely to reduce sacro-sanct engagement !

Except that they did. Android has notification channels. Now, I suppose we could argue that Google could be more ham-fisted about forcing apps to use them, but that's murky.

In fact, Uber on Android does use these notification channels. I just have "All Promotions & Recommendation notifications" disabled, and then "Taking a ride" channel enabled.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#42

Post by TheNewsIsHere »

baxtr wrote: post #21
nateguchi wrote: post #3

I feel like this article reads like the author is upset that Apple + Google prevent / control certain types of notifications (read: spam) > Cross-sell, upsell, education and discovery can work on push Push notifications should only be for transactional notifications. I don't want another inbox for junk.

Agreed. I have a doc appointment app, where I like the notifications to be on for reminders etc. Lately they started sending marketing messages through that channel. Now I’m sure it’s possible to turn off the marketing messages. But I bet most people don’t know and won’t change that. It’s super annoying.

I absolutely hate medical marketing. I recently decided to switch dermatology practices over a combination of bad data management, unwelcome marketing for cosmetic dermatology products, and unsolicited SMSs. I never consented to receive marketing or texts (or to lose my data in a data breach, or to be billed for the in person services by practices other than the one from which I received services and ignored unopened as spam because I didn’t recognize the sender, etc…)

But I digress.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#43

Post by thewebguyd »

mikaeluman wrote: post #13

I see the point. But honestly I am more concerned about having to constantly fight to turn off all permission allowances every time I install an app. And the moment I have some faith and trust an app that I deem important, I get promotional junk as a "notification". I would really like to have notifications allowed on certain apps like parking, or health etc., but all they seem to do is abuse the trust they are given…

> certain apps like parking, or health etc., but all they seem to do is abuse the trust they are given, meaning I turn them off.

I've found that live activities on iOS helps with this quite a bit. Let's me keep notifications disabled on parking apps and DoorDash while still getting the tracking info I want in the live activity & dynamic island.

Otherwise, yeah, you just can't trust anyone to be respectful with notifications. Phone & a messages whitelist via focus modes are the only notifications I allow on my phone.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#44

Post by thewebguyd »

thisislife2 wrote: post #36
mikaeluman wrote: post #13

I see the point. But honestly I am more concerned about having to constantly fight to turn off all permission allowances every time I install an app. And the moment I have some faith and trust an app that I deem important, I get promotional junk as a "notification". I would really like to have notifications allowed on certain apps like parking, or health etc., but all they seem to do is abuse the trust they are given…

Apart from this, what is most needed in both platforms is an application firewall - not every app needs to be allowed to connect to the internet.

I can't believe this still isn't a thing outside of GrapheneOS. Being able to revoke network permissions is a fundamental security and privacy tool that's willfully left out of both Android and iOS.

There's zero reason not to include it as a toggle.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#45

Post by ornornor »

pants2 wrote: post #31
lanerobertlane wrote: post #24

If my phone interrupts me, it should either mean someone genuinely needs my attention right now or it should not be disrupting me at all. That's my notification set up. Apps allowed to receive push notifications Phone, Messages, Whatsapp, Apple Health, [brand] bank. That concludes the list. There is no reason any other app needs to be able to instantly ping me. Most apps are not notifying you because something matter…

The biggest problem are apps that do both. For example, I want Uber to notify me when my driver has arrived, but I don't want it to notify me when they have a special 10% discount on my next 5 rides. It's not straightforward to block one but not the other.

I don’t know about uber specifically but most of the apps I use have a separate toggle for things like marketing. Maybe it’s an EU thing?

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#46

Post by showmypost »

pants2 wrote: post #31
lanerobertlane wrote: post #24

If my phone interrupts me, it should either mean someone genuinely needs my attention right now or it should not be disrupting me at all. That's my notification set up. Apps allowed to receive push notifications Phone, Messages, Whatsapp, Apple Health, [brand] bank. That concludes the list. There is no reason any other app needs to be able to instantly ping me. Most apps are not notifying you because something matter…

The biggest problem are apps that do both. For example, I want Uber to notify me when my driver has arrived, but I don't want it to notify me when they have a special 10% discount on my next 5 rides. It's not straightforward to block one but not the other.

Most people aren’t aware but there are laws that require granular notification consent. For example the GDPR has it. I’m currently fighting with a major bank and educating them about my rights. I want to receive security related notifications but not get spammed by “get a loan up to 50k without lifting a finger” type of bulls*. Send send this almost every week..

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#47

Post by iamacyborg »

plasticeagle wrote: post #37

Massively overlong article that really could have done with an editor. Although obviously editors cost money, and I'm reading it for free, so I can scarcely complain. Nevertheless, some concision would have been appreciated. I'm very unclear to me what the thesis of the article actually is. Yes, push notifications run through the vendor's servers. Yes, Apple fucked up hard by modifying the text within them - and I co…

It’s a through line from an article I posted last week about the similar situation in email, which has a lot more depth as inbox providers have substantially more published papers and patents showing their intermediation.

https://www.jacquescorbytuech.com/writing/what-google-yahoo-...

The next post will be highlighting the difference between the actual state of the art techniques being deployed by large tech co’s (LinkedIn and Pinterest, for example) vs what’s available via commercial marketing providers and how most marketers don’t even make the most of the tools they pay for.

> The author also appears to believe that "broadcast copy" - otherwise known as Spam by those who like to write slightly more honestly - is a legitimate use of push notifications. It is manifestly not, and any app that tries will at the very least be immediately silenced.

Cool man, but it might surprise you to find out that people knowingly opt into receiving this stuff and actually consent to it.

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#48

Post by TheNewsIsHere »

elliottkember wrote: post #30
e40 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. And let's not forget focus modes... I have them that narrow greatly my default set of notifications, so I have a 3 tiers of notifications. It's like the complaint I used to hear all the time: "Slack ruins work for me! OMG I can't work with constant interruptions!!" That is bewildering, because if that's how you feel, you haven't tuned your setup. Slack never interrupts me, yet I am response enough to slack me…

> if that's how you feel, you haven't tuned your setup The withering cry of the software engineer "just tune your setup!" This is simply not a thing that people will do. The defaults are so, so important. They are crucial. The vast majority of people rely on the defaults to be sane. The defaults should be sane.

Absolutely agreed.

How much time must everyone be asked to waste to “tune” a working set of applications to something reasonably sane for human beings.

Sure, what is sane for one human might not be for the next, but it’s not as if trends cannot be discerned.

How ridiculous would it be to be told “if you don’t want people constantly barging into your office, lock the door”?

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#49

Post by exmadscientist »

elliottkember wrote: post #30
e40 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. And let's not forget focus modes... I have them that narrow greatly my default set of notifications, so I have a 3 tiers of notifications. It's like the complaint I used to hear all the time: "Slack ruins work for me! OMG I can't work with constant interruptions!!" That is bewildering, because if that's how you feel, you haven't tuned your setup. Slack never interrupts me, yet I am response enough to slack me…

> if that's how you feel, you haven't tuned your setup The withering cry of the software engineer "just tune your setup!" This is simply not a thing that people will do. The defaults are so, so important. They are crucial. The vast majority of people rely on the defaults to be sane. The defaults should be sane.

The other problem with Slack is that it just straight up... doesn't do what you tell it to. I have a set of notification settings that work for me. Slack goes ahead and just does something else, and you simply can't fix it to do what it's told. (Or couldn't, anyway; I've been off Slack for a while.)

Re: What Apple and Google are doing to push notifications

#50

Post by warkdarrior »

whstl wrote: post #32
baxtr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I have a doc appointment app, where I like the notifications to be on for reminders etc. Lately they started sending marketing messages through that channel. Now I’m sure it’s possible to turn off the marketing messages. But I bet most people don’t know and won’t change that. It’s super annoying.

Same for things like Uber. I do want to know when a car is arriving. I don't want messages asking if I'm hungry.

Hi whstl,

Are you hungry? Open your Uber Eats app now for 10% off.

/this message sent through PalantirFinder -- from marketing and coupons to ordnance, we deliver everything!

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