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Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS

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Re: Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS

#41

Post by antran22 »

TonyAlicea10 wrote: post #3

> I got curious about what writing more semantic HTML would feel like. I've been teaching semantic HTML / accessible markup for a long time, and have worked extensively on sites and apps designed for screen readers. The biggest problem with Tailwind is that it inverts the order that you should be thinking about HTML and CSS. HTML is marking up the meaning of the document. You should start there. Then style with CSS.…

> Tailwind instead pushes the dev into a CSS-first approach. You think about the Tailwind classes you want, and then throw yet-another-div into the DOM just to have an element to hang your classes on.

To be fair plopping a `div` everywhere started way before Tailwind. I blame React and the mess that is CSS in JS for this.

Re: Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS

#42

Post by timr »

JimDabell wrote: post #27

One thing that has always struck me about Tailwind is that practically every argument its proponents use more or less boils down to “I never learnt CSS beyond a junior level” . It’s super common to hear Tailwind advocates say things like “Without Tailwind, we would just have one big disorganised CSS file that always grows uncontrollably and ends up with loads of obsolete stuff in it and !important everywhere! Tailwin…

It's worse than that; the common arguments for Tailwind literally derive from total ignorance of how CSS is made to work, and a disposal of guidelines that developers would worship in any other context (i.e. Don't Repeat Yourself).

It's really frustrating to be talking with someone about Tailwind and CSS, and realize that not only do they not know what "cascading" means, they never even considered the concept might be useful in the context of a stylesheet.

Re: Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS

#43

Post by evilduck »

antran22 wrote: post #41
TonyAlicea10 wrote: post #3

> I got curious about what writing more semantic HTML would feel like. I've been teaching semantic HTML / accessible markup for a long time, and have worked extensively on sites and apps designed for screen readers. The biggest problem with Tailwind is that it inverts the order that you should be thinking about HTML and CSS. HTML is marking up the meaning of the document. You should start there. Then style with CSS.…

> Tailwind instead pushes the dev into a CSS-first approach. You think about the Tailwind classes you want, and then throw yet-another-div into the DOM just to have an element to hang your classes on. To be fair plopping a `div` everywhere started way before Tailwind. I blame React and the mess that is CSS in JS for this.

Divitis was a thing long before React came along. It was a common solution to styling problems even in the jQuery/Dojo days. Getting stuff to look similar across IE6 and FF before CSS3 relied heavily on divs.

Re: Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS

#44

Post by spiderfarmer »

vehemenz wrote: post #15
TonyAlicea10 wrote: post #3

> I got curious about what writing more semantic HTML would feel like. I've been teaching semantic HTML / accessible markup for a long time, and have worked extensively on sites and apps designed for screen readers. The biggest problem with Tailwind is that it inverts the order that you should be thinking about HTML and CSS. HTML is marking up the meaning of the document. You should start there. Then style with CSS.…

A few counterpoints: Treating markup and styles separately is great, in principle, but you'll always need additional markup for certain things. We knew this going back to the early 2000s. There is nothing about Tailwind itself that forces you to use divs and spans instead of the appropriate HTML tag. Documents and interfaces are different. Tailwind makes a lot more sense for interfaces. You can use Tailwind for the i…

As someone who wrote CSS for 20 years and who was against using Tailwind because of “principles” I must say that Tailwind is just awesome. Every minute spent trying to make sense of the structure past you or your colleagues came up with is a minute that could be spent on something more important.

Every time someone says that Tailwind sucks, it’s like hearing the old me speak.

Re: Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS

#45

Post by mhitza »

TonyAlicea10 wrote: post #3

> I got curious about what writing more semantic HTML would feel like. I've been teaching semantic HTML / accessible markup for a long time, and have worked extensively on sites and apps designed for screen readers. The biggest problem with Tailwind is that it inverts the order that you should be thinking about HTML and CSS. HTML is marking up the meaning of the document. You should start there. Then style with CSS.…

Using tailwind doesn't lead to any inherent concession of accessibility. How do you come to that conclusion?

If I look at their component library, they also do the work of including aria attributes for you https://tailwindcss.com/plus/ui-blocks/marketing/sections/pr... (first exsmple with free code I've found).

If we're not talking landing pages, which are more like digital brochures, I always start with markup and then add css classes on top.

Re: Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS

#46

Post by 0x3f »

reaperducer wrote: post #26
flossly wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Tailwind and have all kinds of "screen reader" directives in my templates. Not sure if it helps, but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. It seems that Tailwind is now blamed for the mess that is HTML/CSS. Tailwind certainly allows for accessible designs; it may not be the ideal solution, sure, but what we aim for is "good enough".

if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. Not good enough. You have to be accessible before it is needed in order to avoid legal liability. And how do you expect to get a blind user if they already cannot use your product? None of the doctors I build web sites for are currently blind. I know this because I talk to them regularly. But I still build the web sites fo…

Sounds like you're kind of just talking your book though. Person who makes accessible sites suggests you need an accessible site. Blind people aren't the only ones who might need modifications. You could have an infinitely long list of adjustments for all kinds of disabilities, and tell me I'm lazy for not doing each of them. Why are blind people special?

Re: Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS

#47

Post by bdcravens »

JimDabell wrote: post #27

One thing that has always struck me about Tailwind is that practically every argument its proponents use more or less boils down to “I never learnt CSS beyond a junior level” . It’s super common to hear Tailwind advocates say things like “Without Tailwind, we would just have one big disorganised CSS file that always grows uncontrollably and ends up with loads of obsolete stuff in it and !important everywhere! Tailwin…

Isn't the same true of those who use a library that wraps SQL?

Re: Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS

#48

Post by embedding-shape »

flossly wrote: post #18
TonyAlicea10 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about "purity/correctness" it's about the real experience of a blind person. Accessibility means caring about the HTML. Your comment only mentions developers as the audience of HTML authoring, as opposed to users, which is a common attitude and the core problem with Tailwind.

I use Tailwind and have all kinds of "screen reader" directives in my templates. Not sure if it helps, but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them. It seems that Tailwind is now blamed for the mess that is HTML/CSS. Tailwind certainly allows for accessible designs; it may not be the ideal solution, sure, but what we aim for is "good enough".

> but if we get our first blind user I will gladly make some admends to make it more usable for them.

Isn't this slightly backwards? Why would blind users sign up if the platform isn't usable for them in the first place? It has to be usable for them for them to become users :)

Re: Moving away from Tailwind, and learning to structure my CSS

#50

Post by keybits »

hit8run wrote: post #29

Thats why I maintain the successor to tachyons: https://tachyonsneo.com No build pipeline. Resort to CSS when utilites make no sense. No lock in.

Can you clarify how this relates to Tachyons - do all Tachyons features work? Or is it a subset of Tachyons?
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