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Computer Hobby Movement in Canada

museum.eecs.yorku.ca

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Re: Computer Hobby Movement in Canada

#41

Post by grobibi »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #4
mewse-hn wrote: post #2

"We will examine this movement by looking at Toronto, the only city in Canada"

If Canada historically has a complex around his relative relationship to the USA, the same holds outside of central Canada, maybe with the exception of pockets that punch above their weight in terms of representation (like PEI). This is both funny (TSN: Toronto Sports Network) and concerning (current AB and SK alienation). Personally I'm first a Canadian and second a proud Albertan, and find it maddening that like th…

Look on the bright side; at least you're not from New Brunswick.

Re: Computer Hobby Movement in Canada

#42

Post by dismalaf »

stackghost wrote: post #37
dismalaf wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Alberta has a wealth fund. 2. The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway has. Also, you are aware that, no matter who exploits the oil, the Alberta government receives royalties from it, right? Also, most of the foreign companies have joint ventures with Canadian entities and a lot of the money does stay within Canada and Alberta. And eve…

>Alberta has a wealth fund. Since the 70s, yes, and it's minuscule because the oil companies socialize the risks and privatize the profits, less some token royalties. Norway's was established in the 90s and is multiple orders of magnitude larger, because they don't allow big oil to fuck them over. >The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway…

> Alberta does not "pay into" equalization payments. Provinces do not "send money to other provinces". That's simply not how the program works.

You're being pedantic.

Income from Alberta workers gets taxed and sent to other provinces or citizens living in other provinces via various federal programs. If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta.

Splitting hairs over the precise "how" doesn't change the fact it's money siphoned out of Alberta to other provinces.

Re: Computer Hobby Movement in Canada

#43

Post by cmrdporcupine »

PeterWhittaker wrote: post #40
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toronto is also a relatively short drive from Chicago. It's actually far more similar to Chicago than to coastal NYC. It is really geographically "midwest" by US standards, not "east" When I was in elementary school in Alberta in the 80s we called this "central Canada." And that's how I still think of it. But there's a growing trend especially in Alberta to call this "down east" which is in my mind a very political w…

Ah, our geography. I live in Arnprior, about half an hour west of Ottawa (technically, my house is a couple of clicks from the Ottawa border, but we don't really start counting until the burbs). Anyway. I live closer to James Bay than DC. Let that sink in a moment (and sink is what you will do if you attempt the drive).

It's true, I should have prefixed what I said about Ontario as with "southern Ontario"

Our province is huge, and east past about e.g. Peterborough it's a very different province. And north past e.g. Barrie. And then again past Thunder Bay, etc etc.

Southern Ontario is the north eastern tip of the midwest. Eastern Ontario is the western end of the northeast. Northern Ontario is... huge.

Re: Computer Hobby Movement in Canada

#44

Post by stackghost »

dismalaf wrote: post #42
stackghost wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Alberta has a wealth fund. Since the 70s, yes, and it's minuscule because the oil companies socialize the risks and privatize the profits, less some token royalties. Norway's was established in the 90s and is multiple orders of magnitude larger, because they don't allow big oil to fuck them over. >The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway…

> Alberta does not "pay into" equalization payments. Provinces do not "send money to other provinces". That's simply not how the program works. You're being pedantic. Income from Alberta workers gets taxed and sent to other provinces or citizens living in other provinces via various federal programs. If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta. Splitting hairs over the precise "how" doesn't ch…

>Income from Alberta workers gets taxed and sent to other provinces or citizens living in other provinces via various federal programs. If we were a separate country, all that money would stay in Alberta.

And you'd be incurring lots of new expenses like border controls, national security, etc. The last estimates I saw were that the total equalization payments attributable to Alberta were about a tenth of the cost of federal government services provided to Alberta.

That is to say Albertan taxpayers would be on the hook for an additional 25 billion dollars annually, or so.

>Splitting hairs over the precise "how" doesn't change the fact it's money siphoned out of Alberta to other provinces.

It's not pedantic, you're just factually incorrect. It's money that all Canadians already pay to the government (because it's money from federal income tax). There's no line item in the Alberta budget for "equalization payments".

If we deleted the entire Equalization Program tomorrow, we'd all still be paying the same taxes.

Re: Computer Hobby Movement in Canada

#45

Post by jgon »

stackghost wrote: post #37
dismalaf wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Alberta has a wealth fund. 2. The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway has. Also, you are aware that, no matter who exploits the oil, the Alberta government receives royalties from it, right? Also, most of the foreign companies have joint ventures with Canadian entities and a lot of the money does stay within Canada and Alberta. And eve…

>Alberta has a wealth fund. Since the 70s, yes, and it's minuscule because the oil companies socialize the risks and privatize the profits, less some token royalties. Norway's was established in the 90s and is multiple orders of magnitude larger, because they don't allow big oil to fuck them over. >The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway…

Equally, you are being fed a narrative. Yes, yes, every Canadian pays into federal taxes that are then dispersed amongst provinces to give a relatively "equal" standard of living, hence the term equilization payments. But why does Alberta consistently send far more money than it receives? Just what is it that allows Albertans to pay so much more in taxes? And of course that doesn't even get into how the equalization formula is created and applied, what sorts of things are factored into a province's "fiscal capacity" and what things get factored out, and whether those parts of the formula could be slanted to benefit certain provinces more than others. Of course at this point you'd probably deflect and say that the current equalization formula was put in place by the Harper government because you think that I must support the conservatives and this is some sort of gotcha.

The bottom line is that since the big oil and gas discoveries of the 60s Alberta has sent roughly 300 billion more to the federal government than it has received in return. This is of course part of being a province in a country, instead of a country itself like Norway is. And of course there has been mismanagement of the Heritage Fund, so Alberta is not blameless here. But the oft repeated talking point that Alberta doesn't actually really contribute disproportionately to the country is completely false. Why doesn't Alberta have a wealth fund on par with Norway? Because that money has instead been used to help fund hospitals, roads, schools and more across the rest of the country. I think that's a pretty good investment and I'm not upset about that, but I am upset when people don't even see that and choose instead to recycle a bunch of trite talking points that are basically lying by omission.

Re: Computer Hobby Movement in Canada

#46

Post by stackghost »

jgon wrote: post #45
stackghost wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Alberta has a wealth fund. Since the 70s, yes, and it's minuscule because the oil companies socialize the risks and privatize the profits, less some token royalties. Norway's was established in the 90s and is multiple orders of magnitude larger, because they don't allow big oil to fuck them over. >The amount Alberta has sent in equalization payments would have allowed us to have a far larger wealth fund than Norway…

Equally, you are being fed a narrative. Yes, yes, every Canadian pays into federal taxes that are then dispersed amongst provinces to give a relatively "equal" standard of living, hence the term equilization payments. But why does Alberta consistently send far more money than it receives? Just what is it that allows Albertans to pay so much more in taxes? And of course that doesn't even get into how the equalization…

>But why does Alberta consistently send far more money than it receives?

The Province of Alberta sends no money at all. What part of this is so hard to understand?

I live in BC, and we also are considered a "have" province, and we also do not send any money.

The money comes from the Federal Government. It was never provincial money to begin with. It's tax money that is paid directly to the federal government by Canadians, and businesses. It does not come "from Alberta" or "from BC".

>Just what is it that allows Albertans to pay so much more in taxes?

Every single Canadian is subject to the exact same Federal Tax schedule. If you and I were in the same income tax bracket, we'd pay the exact same rate.

If Albertans are "paying more in taxes" (doubtful), then that's Danielle's problem. But not a single cent of provincial tax revenue gets put into Equalization payments.

Re: Computer Hobby Movement in Canada

#49

Post by soperj »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #15
mountain_peak wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> central Canada This is part of the issue; the GTA is solidly in the east (the centre of Canada is in Manitoba), but when someone says, "eastern Canada", one automatically thinks "Nova Scotia", but Toronto is a relatively short drive from New York City. That being said, I understand that in most cases, "central" is referring to population, industry, finance (not fashion - that's Montrėal). Regarding the site, the ex…

Toronto is also a relatively short drive from Chicago. It's actually far more similar to Chicago than to coastal NYC. It is really geographically "midwest" by US standards, not "east" When I was in elementary school in Alberta in the 80s we called this "central Canada." And that's how I still think of it. But there's a growing trend especially in Alberta to call this "down east" which is in my mind a very political w…

We used to have bumper stickers that said "Let those eastern bastards freeze in the dark". Funny to mention this on an article referencing the PET.

Re: Computer Hobby Movement in Canada

#50

Post by jgon »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #13
skeeter2020 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Canada historically has a complex around his relative relationship to the USA, the same holds outside of central Canada, maybe with the exception of pockets that punch above their weight in terms of representation (like PEI). This is both funny (TSN: Toronto Sports Network) and concerning (current AB and SK alienation). Personally I'm first a Canadian and second a proud Albertan, and find it maddening that like th…

I dunno man. I grew up in Edmonton area and didn't much care about whatever in central Canada, and only had a vague sense of it despite having done a trip across Canada with the family when I was 8. Of course "western alienation" talk was all around from right wing sorts but my family paid no attention to it anyways. Then I moved to Toronto in 1996 in the .com boom. I had spent plenty of time in Vancouver but living…

Respectfully, as an Albertan who still lives in Alberta, and who wants to remain a part of Canada I don't think that the persecution complex is 100% bullshit, and dismissals of it as such by eastern Canada only serve to reinforce it.

Re: equalization, of course the massive economy of Ontario makes a big part of GDP, but the point of Alberta's importance is that its economy allows it to make an outsized impact compared to its population. This surplus GDP/capita makes a huge difference in contributions to the equalization program wherein a province with 1/4 the population of Ontario can make the same size of contribution to the program. If you remove Alberta from the pool it becomes much much harder to retain the same size of payments to other provinces on the back of Ontario among others.

Second, Alberta has been one of the most under-represented province in the federal government, and that trend has gone on for decades. Lured by Alberta's economy people keep moving here and our ridings keep getting more and more people while we retain the same number of seats. This has been slowly changing as the government is basically forced to allocate more seats to Alberta and now between Ontario and BC, Alberta is no longer the most disadvantaged, but it still isn't a great situation.

Finally, there's all the one off issues that add up over time. As an example in the mid 2010s oil was in the gutters and Alberta was facing real economic issues. In 2015, there were roughly 35,000 job losses, and in 2016 there were another 25,000 direct job losses in the oil and gas sector. In 2018 when GM announced they were going to close their oshawa plant and put 3000 people out of work the federal government held an emergency midnight meeting to discuss how to help the workers. Those types of optics don't go unnoticed, that Alberta could lose roughly 100k jobs over 2014-2017 and that 3k jobs in Ontario gets a midnight cabinet meeting. Alberta still paid into equalization as a "have" province during that time, despite huge deficits as the provincial government tried to backstop revenue losses.

All of which is to say that the separation crowd is a bunch of bad actors and the flames of western alienation are certainly being fanned by people with ill intentions, but the core of that alienation stems from a real place and from real actions both current and historical, and glibly dismissing it is just not something I can agree with.

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