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Why airlines are always going bankrupt

davidoks.blog

41–50 of 76 posts

Re: Why airlines are always going bankrupt

#41
post #13

How much of this is related to the pilots union? It seems like they capture all excess profit in the system during the good times, and fight vigorously to keep their inflated earnings even during the bad times.

How much of your earnings are inflated? Do you safely do a job that potentially risks several hundred people's lives every single day?

Do you realize you are infinitely closer to a pilot than a billionaire or a founder or whomever it is you seem to care more about than working people?

Class consciousness, solidarity, and workers literally fighting and dying earned you an 8 hour day, social security, and all the workplace protections you probably take for granted.

Re: Why airlines are always going bankrupt

#42
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A race to the bottom on pilot pay won't help anything. Well it may lead to less qualified pilots. You can ask Boeing how well screwing over labor has worked for them if you like. All US airlines have the same labor costs for pilots and it isn't their highest cost anyway. That would be fuel. If you want to divvy up costs that way: Boeing is probably the biggest problem. Both them and Airbus eat up all possible excess…

> Break up Boeing, bring back competition in airliner manufacturing. Sounds backwards. Pilots have a total monopoly. Boeing doesn't.

Pilots have a total monopoly... in the occupation of piloting?

Re: Why airlines are always going bankrupt

#44
post #2

> From its deregulation in 1978 to the end of 2025, the airline industry has cumulatively lost money: its net profit over those 47 years sits at negative $37 billion. That was surprising. Goes against the idea that deregulation allows companies to squeeze consumers and earn excess profits. My understanding is that before regulation, routes were allotted by the government. So an airline might own New York to Boston, s…

The article does discuss union collective bargaining agreements and labor cost structure in several sections.

> Labor costs might seem variable, but they’re actually not: pilot, flight attendant, and mechanic compensation in the United States is governed by the Railway Labor Act of 1926 (which was extended to airlines in 1936), which stipulates that collective bargaining agreements don’t actually expire but rather remain in force until they’re replaced. So even your wage bill is more or less fixed over multi-year horizons.

> Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection—which allows a company to continue operating while it restructures its debts under court supervision—is practically the only mechanism by which an airline can renegotiate its rigid cost structure, from aircraft leases to collective bargaining agreements. Oftentimes this renegotiation takes on a rather predatory character. When United Airlines filed for bankruptcy in 2002 in the aftermath of the September 11th attacks, it terminated its pension plan...

> So Chapter 11 is a relief valve for airlines struggling under the weight of their fixed costs; but it doesn’t really do much to help the system as a whole. For airlines, bankruptcy rarely culminates with liquidation; airlines that emerge from bankruptcy proceedings, having voided pension obligations and rejected aircraft leases, can operate at a fundamentally lower cost basis than their competitors. So bankruptcy doesn’t really restore the industry to a competitive equilibrium that can cover the cost of capital: it resets the floor at a lower level, from which a new round of ruinous competition can begin.

Re: Why airlines are always going bankrupt

#45
post #31

Simply because flying passengers is a losing business. The ones that make money operate as financial services from selling points to their partners via their frequent flyer programs.

But _why_ is it a losing business? The article also mentions frequent flier programs.

Re: Why airlines are always going bankrupt

#46
post #26

Capitalism doesn't work for big infrastructure projects? Who knew?

This is capitalism working as intended. Only the best run airlines can survive, and investors are collectively subsidizing air travel for non-investors.

Nothing in the article (or in the real world) even remotely suggests that "the best" airlines survive. Simply, the airlines that survive are the ones that survive.

Re: Why airlines are always going bankrupt

#47

Maybe we need Uber for airlines. Pilots don't lose their skills, passengers always have demand, the issue is that pricing is too predictable. You could see this with skiplagged, there really is room for fare pricing innovation. Start by capturing the private luxury market, work down to commodity.

That sounds like a nightmare.

Re: Why airlines are always going bankrupt

#48
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New revenue model idea: Charge $40/month on a person's credit card; a subscription. This buys the customer miles. Whenever you want to go somewhere, you use your miles. I think it would work based on the fact that people are willing to pay much more money for services if it's spread out and predictable. The fact that it's pre-paid also creates a lock-in benefit for the airline that the 'pay later over time' schemes l…

I mean a lot of airline point credit cards do something like that. Many have a fee, and you earn miles by using the card & get mileage bonuses for certain things. But these programs only make sense to a consumer if A) you’re good at finding good value for your miles and B) you’re passively earning miles by doing things you’d normally do anyways. (With a bonus for airline loyalty perks, if you fly a lot.) Thing is, bu…

They also have nothing to do with either Imperial miles or nautical miles. Like, a 2,500 mile flight costs something like 70,000 miles. I am irrationally angry about this and therefore refuse to participate in any related credit card scheme.

Re: Why airlines are always going bankrupt

#49
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Break up Boeing, bring back competition in airliner manufacturing. Sounds backwards. Pilots have a total monopoly. Boeing doesn't.

Pilots have a total monopoly... in the occupation of piloting?

For US commercial airlines it is my understanding that there are effectively no non-union pilots. That's good for the pilots (higher wages), but bad for the flyers (higher ticket prices).

Re: Why airlines are always going bankrupt

#50
post #8
post #2

> From its deregulation in 1978 to the end of 2025, the airline industry has cumulatively lost money: its net profit over those 47 years sits at negative $37 billion. That was surprising. Goes against the idea that deregulation allows companies to squeeze consumers and earn excess profits. My understanding is that before regulation, routes were allotted by the government. So an airline might own New York to Boston, s…

> was surprising. Goes against the idea that deregulation allows companies to squeeze consumers and earn excess profits. That's because this assertion is economically illiterate. Deregulation can lead to increased profits where otherwise companies have monopoly power. But often, the regulation was there in the first place to ensure that companies had sufficient profit to invest in expensive infrastructure. ( E.g. rai…

That also didn't work well. The US is notoriously very poor in railroads.
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