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DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

simonwillison.net

41–50 of 420 posts

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#41
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GitHub is free.

User publishes to github => Copilot trains with GitHub data => MS Sells copilot => User workes for Microsoft (in the sense of giving it's labour for MS to make money) User publishes to github => Deepseek trains with GitHub data => Deepseek gives model away for free => User did not work for Deepseek (in the sense of giving it's labour for Deepseek to make money)

Exactly, it's intuitively different.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#42
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the data is opensource on github, then in my opinion it should be fair game.

Things being public should not be enough. just because someone leaked your medical information to the public via a data breach should not make it fair game. There should be some rules.

I feel that's a false dichotomy. The code on github is freely available for people to read and learn from, leaked medical data isn't.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#43
post #14

I'm surprised that people here don't care at all about these models openly training on your data, especially if you use them straight from the model developer. Whereas things like "GitHub now automatically opts everyone into using their code for model training" get hundreds of justifiably angry comments, I never see this brought up anymore on posts like these talking about using Chinese models through OpenRouter. Thi…

What do you mean specifically? Data passed through OpenRouter? Or that they too indiscriminately ingest data all over the web? If the former, I assume it's just that anyone still using them just doesn't care where the data comes from. If the latter, well, it seems like every day there's some news on some new model from somewhere, and it takes dedication to complain every time. There's also the factor that I believe DeepSeek is more open with the model, while others keep it entirely proprietary, which feels fairer and (personally) is also less offensive.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#44
post #31
post #9

Deepseek v4 Pro feels like Claude Opus 4.6 in it's personality but here's what I did find out about costs: I did cut loose Deepseek v4 on a decent sized Typescript codebase and asked it to only focus on a single endpoint and go in depth on it layer by layer (API, DTOs, service, database models) and form a complete picture of types involved and introduced and ensure no adhoc types are being introduced. It developed a…

Only similarity it has to Opus 4.6 is the 4 in the name. I do not understand these dishonest comparisons. OOS models are vool, cheap and promising for a future -- but why are we pretending they are better than they are?

Speak for yourself. I found switching from Opus 4.7 to be completely painless and in fact, due to the reliability of Anthropic’s API, less of a friction despite slower response times. Zero issues on a large mono repro

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#45
post #14

I'm surprised that people here don't care at all about these models openly training on your data, especially if you use them straight from the model developer. Whereas things like "GitHub now automatically opts everyone into using their code for model training" get hundreds of justifiably angry comments, I never see this brought up anymore on posts like these talking about using Chinese models through OpenRouter. Thi…

The cool thing about open-weights model is that you are free to use alternative providers that won't phone home to the original model creators.

I see 6 alternative providers listed on Openrouter for DeepSeek V4 Pro for example.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO this is unfair for GPL or similarly licensed code. Seems ok for MIT like licensed code though

It's totally fair to use GPL code, it just means all the models built by Anthropic, OpenAI, etc. using GPL-licensed source are themselves bound by the GPL. Plus, any works created downstream using those AI tools. We're on the verge of a golden age of software as soon as someone finds a court with courage.

Ah, you have much more faith in the legal system than I do. It's nice to dream, though.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#47
post #36
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even taking into account the fact that they are billing at 75% discount it's still quite cheaper

Aren't they all billing at discount?

Anthropic's and OpenAI's costs seem to include a fairly ok margin, from the very fourth hand info I have.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#48
post #14

I'm surprised that people here don't care at all about these models openly training on your data, especially if you use them straight from the model developer. Whereas things like "GitHub now automatically opts everyone into using their code for model training" get hundreds of justifiably angry comments, I never see this brought up anymore on posts like these talking about using Chinese models through OpenRouter. Thi…

If they give me the resulting model in the end, they can train on my data all they want. Hell, I'll send them more of it.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#49
post #9

Deepseek v4 Pro feels like Claude Opus 4.6 in it's personality but here's what I did find out about costs: I did cut loose Deepseek v4 on a decent sized Typescript codebase and asked it to only focus on a single endpoint and go in depth on it layer by layer (API, DTOs, service, database models) and form a complete picture of types involved and introduced and ensure no adhoc types are being introduced. It developed a…

How did you use it? OpenRouter, or provider directly?

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#50
post #6

I'm currently paying for Anthropic's Max subscription (the 100 USD one) and I quite often hit or approach the 5 hour limits, but usually get to around 60-80% of the weekly limits before they reset (Opus 4.7 with high thinking for everything, unless CC decides to spawn sub-agents with Haiku or something). Those tokens are heavily subsidized, but DeepSeek's API pricing is looking really good. For example, with an agent…

What would be the non-subsidized price for a V4 api? Can it be priced 3x cheaper than bigger models? In Openrouter, this 1600B param model costs 0.4$. Whereas Kimi 2.6, 1000B params is 0.7; GLM 5.1, 754B params is 1.0$.

Here’s their pricing docs, they’re running a discount for now https://api-docs.deepseek.com/quick_start/pricing/

The 150M assumption of mine is for 100 USD at the regular prices (though even that needs sufficient cache hits). Anthropic subsidizes way more per-token I think, though.

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