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New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

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Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#41

Post by jfengel »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #15
simonask wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, came to the comments for this! Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa. That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words a…

English is claimed as being influenced heavily by every nation that conquered England, because of course it was: Latin via the Romans; Anglo-Saxon/Gemanic; then Viking; and, then the Latin/Romance influence again via France/Normandy. And of course, English develops organically (unlike, say, French), allowing new words to emerge, and for old words to take on new meanings. I love it. As an Englishman, I always find it…

The Roman influence is limited mostly to place names. Otherwise Latin had basically disappeared from the island.

Latin influences English as a learned tongue, used by clerics and academics. Other than that most of it comes via French, when the Normans brought it.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#42

Post by conartist6 »

Here's the old English poem! https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47296/caedmons-hymn-5... Should be in the public domain by now eh?

  Nu scilun herga hefenricæs uard
  metudæs mehti and his modgithanc
  uerc uuldurfadur sue he uundra gihuæs
  eci dryctin or astelidæ.
  he ærist scop ældu barnum
  hefen to hrofæ halig sceppend
  tha middingard moncynnæs uard
  eci dryctin æfter tiadæ
  firum foldu frea allmehtig
I couldn't make hide nor hair of it without the translation, but with the translation I see quite a few more words than just "and his" that have stayed around:

  hefen: heaven
  uerc: work
  uard: guard/ward
  hrofæ: roof
  æfter: after
  middingard: Earth, to Marvel
  allmehtig: almighty

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#43

Post by lproven »

nephihaha wrote: post #35
walthamstow wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father in law is a Persian speaker. I was very surprised to learn that thank you (mersi) is the same as in French, and OK/indeed (baleh) is the same as in Spanish.

Arigato in Japanese is said to be a borrowing from Portuguese Obrigado (might want to verify that!).

No, it's documented, as is tempura. It's like pancakes: you make them before the time of fasting. "The Time of X" in Spanish is "tempora X" and I would bet Portuguese is similar.

There are loads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_words_of_Port...

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#44

Post by lproven »

TFNA wrote: post #30
simonask wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, came to the comments for this! Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa. That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words a…

> I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words This is how the Icelandic sagas were translated into English in the nineteenth century. Translators then almost always chose the English cognate of the Old Norse world, even if that English cognate was obsolete or its meaning had changed. Far from helping immerse readers in the medieval world, the effect (at least…

> the effect (at least for modern sensibilities) is offputting and goofy.

Oh my. I find the reverse. It's spooky and enchanting because once I know all the cognates I feel like I can magically understand the original.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#46

Post by roysting »

shelled wrote: post #24
simonask wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, came to the comments for this! Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa. That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words a…

As someone with native command over Hindi and, unless it's spoken by folks from certain UK countries, English, who also spoke and read Sanskrit quite well during school, I had a period of a few months when I went down the rabbit-hole of wonderful general linguistic history and the interrelation among them. I was shocked beyond imagination to see how we might actually have been more the same than different, if we go b…

I’ve long thought about how wonderful it would be to create a contemporary new hybrid language whose objective was to unify communication along the very common linguistic origins at least some language clusters have. The core challenge of course is that it would be contrived in a time when top down imposition does not work as effectively. It’s a dream I have nonetheless.

It would be a gargantuan effort just alone to devise a language that would unify historic language origins roots in a contemporary time. The objective would be to stop the death and eradication of languages, e.g., Welsh, German, or any of the numerous other smaller languages and dialects that are all under varying states and types of endangerment or extinction risk, but also prevent an ignoble, unstable, and inadequate language like contemporary English from dominating the whole world.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#47

Post by anthk »

shelled wrote: post #24
simonask wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, came to the comments for this! Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa. That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words a…

As someone with native command over Hindi and, unless it's spoken by folks from certain UK countries, English, who also spoke and read Sanskrit quite well during school, I had a period of a few months when I went down the rabbit-hole of wonderful general linguistic history and the interrelation among them. I was shocked beyond imagination to see how we might actually have been more the same than different, if we go b…

It's all about Proto-Indoeuropean. You can get tons of words from Latin and Sanskrit and compare them.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#48

Post by zeegroen »

cyocum wrote: post #8

My degree is in Celtic Studies. This kind of discovery may be surprising to those not versed in it but not those who have studied these languages. Some of the best preserved Old Irish, for instance, is in St. Gallen in what is now Austria and Milan. There is still an entire Medieval European world out there in the archives still waiting to be discovered. Sadly, there are not many of us who have the skills to do this…

Oh that's interesting! In my mind we are now on the cusp of being able to scan all these archives and have them be read by LLMs (in a first pass). Do you agree with that assessment, or am I being naive here?

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#49

Post by anthk »

mdp2021 wrote: post #40
shelled wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with native command over Hindi and, unless it's spoken by folks from certain UK countries, English, who also spoke and read Sanskrit quite well during school, I had a period of a few months when I went down the rabbit-hole of wonderful general linguistic history and the interrelation among them. I was shocked beyond imagination to see how we might actually have been more the same than different, if we go b…

Brother! I hope you have have also studied a bit of Latin and Greek, to see the great similarities, and paths like that of "jñāna, gnō̃́sis, gnosco, knowledge". It is a very great thing that so many peoples now speak languages with clear common roots buried behind the deviations of use; and outmost interesting to recognize the plan and the deep thought in those radixes.

"Conocimiento, conocer" in Spanish (to know).

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#50

Post by lproven »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #23
rubzah wrote: post #20

This is the text in Old English for anyone looking: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47296/caedmons-hymn-5... Actually, here is the full text with the modern English inserted: Nu scilun herga hefenricæs uard Now let us praise Heaven-Kingdom's guardian, metudæs mehti and his modgithanc the Maker's might and his mind's thoughts, uerc uuldurfadur sue he uundra gihuæs the work of the glory-father—of every wonder, e…

Oh, what? Is "eci" (eternal?) the origin of "Ecki Thump" - Yorkshire version of OMG?

And indeed the ancient and mysterious Lancashire martial art, of course.

https://www.goodiesruleok.com/articles.php?id=17

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