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Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

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Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#41

Post by eesmith »

throwawaypath wrote: post #32
noumenon1111 wrote: post #14

He glosses over Muslim history and al-Andalus with a "the Muslims were driven out of Spain" like Spain itself wasn't Muslim for almost 800 years. And then, the Enlightenment created the most peaceful time in human history, really? Seems like mutual assured destruction is what makes peace, not sound philosophy. People are forgetful and argumentative, by nature. The sooner we realize that, the sooner we can have nice t…

>He glosses over Muslim history and al-Andalus with a "the Muslims were driven out of Spain" like Spain itself wasn't Muslim for almost 800 years. Yes, the colonists were driven out. We should celebrate any time in history native and indigenous people defeat their colonizers and reclaim their indigenous lands.

The descendants of the Muslim colonists were defeated by the descendants of the Roman colonists, fighting under the banner of the Roman Church, and not by the native and indigenous people of the Iberian peninsula.

The native and indigenous people of the Iberian peninsula would be the Celtic, Iberian, Celtiberian and Aquitanian tribes conquered, colonized, and assimilated by the Roman Republic. The land was later occupied by the Germanic peoples before entering Muslim rule.

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#42

Post by boxed »

bagxrvxpepzn wrote: post #31
boxed wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That anti-liberalism was born out of liberalism doesn't make liberalism wrong. It's like saying all dinosaurs were birds because birds evolved from dinosaurs. It just doesn't follow that a weird offshoot now defines the entire group retroactively back in time. It makes no sense to think like this logically.

Your argument is unironically "real Liberalism hasn't been tried yet." "critical theory" and "identity politics" are not "weird offshoots," they are unavoidable consequences of Liberalism. No matter how many times you try Liberalism it will degenerate into exactly the current situation we are facing now. Failing to acknowledge the structural flaws of Liberalism just opens up an opportunity for ideological revolution.…

> Your argument is unironically "real Liberalism hasn't been tried yet."

No, it's been tried, and most of us are living in it right now. You are attempting a strawman badly.

> "critical theory" and "identity politics" are not "weird offshoots," they are unavoidable consequences of Liberalism.

First of all "identity politics" is just the new name for "tribalism". It's older than the human race. So leave that out.

For the rest: nope. Why did it take literally hundreds of years from the start of the Enlightenment for critical race theory to go totally crazy? If it's inevitable, it should be much faster. Look at communism which inevitably becomes just garden variety authoritarian dictatorship. How long does that take? Less than a year seems to be the pattern. THAT is what inevitable from the seed looks like.

I seriously hope your definition of liberalism is very different from mine, because you're not making much sense...

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#44

Post by krapp »

crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #34
krapp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. I prefer actual medical science keeping me from dying of typhus and cholera to praying to the spirits, but you do you.

The idea that I said something so dualistic like that or that actual caring ways couldn't possibly include healing sciences learned are both delusional projections and a form of dishonesty you practiced on yourself there. Especially when there have been recent scientific developments regarding learning how ancient ways, such as how bilateral simulation from drumming/dancing in ceremonial ritual trance with polyphonic…

You said we should return to a pre-civilizational state of animist goddess worship. You even implied we should abandon language. That's about as dualistic an option as one can get.

No doctor worth their salt would ever claim that ritual trance and polyphonic singing could replace modern medicine, and I'm guessing that for all of the anarcho-primitivist spiel, you probably take a Tylenol when you have a headache rather than have a shaman trepan your skull to let the demons out.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree that patriarchy and capitalism have done vast damage to the world, but the premise that humanity lived in some kind of utopian state of matriarchal harmony in the hunter-gatherer days is just naive. The base of knowledge that led to modern science and medicine isn't the product of patriarchy or capitalism, it's simply reality and that reality freely applies to everyone, everywhere.

We don't need to abandon that, we just need to find a way to apply that knowledge more equitably.

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#45

Post by teekert »

HerbManic wrote: post #39
teekert wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, it’s a lot more optimistic about human nature than what we’re used too. It’s refreshing and well argued. Worth a read!

That is good to know. My original post was a bit reductionist, I do generally feel that people try to do good and are much more co-operative than adversarial. It is just that we can be dragged into a defensive/attack position easily if we do not keep an eye on that. I suspect that despite all the issues of the world, we are slowly heading to a future that will be much more peaceful.

I think so too.

The book gives a lot of examples of where and how the beautiful sides op human nature surface in difficult times. It also argues that at least some of the things we hold as true (ie civilized behaviour is a thin layer of veneer) are not true.

One example is that we often think that as in "Lord of the Flies", a book that shaped us in a way, civilization slowly drains from the group as they become more primal when hunger sets in and oversight is lost. But Rutger finds an example of a real group of stranded kids, who thrived and generally showed admirable behaviour. That's just one of the examples.

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#48

Post by guzfip »

bagxrvxpepzn wrote: post #19

The answer to Liberalism dying isn't more Liberalism. Liberalism is dying precisely because Liberalism is wrong or at minimum, unsustainable. The attitude of the writer is exactly like the fetishists of every dead ideology, in particular Libertarians who argue "Real capitalism hasn't been tried yet!" or Communists who argue "Real communism hasn't been tried yet." These people, Liberals (capital L) included, need to g…

The problem with most anti-liberals is that they seem to be exclusively lunatics.

The one exception seems to be Europeans catholic monarchists. I’ve found those people to be surprisingly rational in a world dominated by low IQ populism.

Re: Civilization Is Not the Default. Violence Is

#50

Post by [deleted] »

krapp wrote: post #44
crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that I said something so dualistic like that or that actual caring ways couldn't possibly include healing sciences learned are both delusional projections and a form of dishonesty you practiced on yourself there. Especially when there have been recent scientific developments regarding learning how ancient ways, such as how bilateral simulation from drumming/dancing in ceremonial ritual trance with polyphonic…

You said we should return to a pre-civilizational state of animist goddess worship. You even implied we should abandon language. That's about as dualistic an option as one can get. No doctor worth their salt would ever claim that ritual trance and polyphonic singing could replace modern medicine, and I'm guessing that for all of the anarcho-primitivist spiel, you probably take a Tylenol when you have a headache rathe…

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