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Average is all you need

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Re: Average is all you need

#41

Post by marginalia_nu »

Retr0id wrote: post #24
marginalia_nu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs are trained to predict tokens on highly mediocre code though. How will it exceed its training data?

Humans can decide to write above-average code by putting in more effort, writing comprehensive tests, iteratively refactoring, profile-informed optimization, etc. I think you can have LLMs do that too, and then generate synthetic training data for "high-effort code".

Well state of the art LLMs sure can't consistently produce high quality code outside of small greenfield projects or tiny demos, which is a domain that was always easy even for humans as there are very few constraints to consider, and the context is very small.

Part of the problem is that better code is almost always less code. Where a skilled programmer will introduce a surgical 1-3 LOC diff, an incompetent programmer will introduce 100 LOC. So you'll almost always have a case where the bad code outnumbers the good.

Re: Average is all you need

#42

Post by throw310822 »

Why average? I've always taken pride in my work and developed things that went beyond the expectations of the management and of the final users. Now I'm using LLMs a lot and I've been able to do much more than I used to- I find them great coworkers, technically very knowledgeable, patient and fast. I provide the big picture, keep an eye on the architectural soundness and code quality, and design the features. The LLM does the rest. The results are way above average.

Re: Average is all you need

#43

Post by analog31 »

drfloyd51 wrote: post #2

If average is all we need, then anyone can do it. What value do I add? How does an employee differentiate themselves? Why didn’t the boss ask the AI for the charts to begin with? Everyone’s income is going to be below average, because they got fired.

For that matter, how does a business differentiate themselves, if people can write their own software? While we're busy trying to replace our employees with AI, our customers are trying to replace our products with AI.

Re: Average is all you need

#44

Post by Retr0id »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #41
Retr0id wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans can decide to write above-average code by putting in more effort, writing comprehensive tests, iteratively refactoring, profile-informed optimization, etc. I think you can have LLMs do that too, and then generate synthetic training data for "high-effort code".

Well state of the art LLMs sure can't consistently produce high quality code outside of small greenfield projects or tiny demos, which is a domain that was always easy even for humans as there are very few constraints to consider, and the context is very small. Part of the problem is that better code is almost always less code. Where a skilled programmer will introduce a surgical 1-3 LOC diff, an incompetent programm…

Current LLMs do tend to explode complexity if left to their own devices but I don't think that's an inherent limitation. Mediocre programmers can write good code if they try hard enough and spend enough time on it.

Re: Average is all you need

#45

Post by movedx01 »

Average is only a tombstone of someone having failed to do better. And settling for average means pulling down.

When it comes to bs dashboard where "average is all you need", maybe the "better than average" result would be asking yourself if it's even worth doing in the first place?

Re: Average is all you need

#46

Post by raw_anon_1111 »

drfloyd51 wrote: post #2

If average is all we need, then anyone can do it. What value do I add? How does an employee differentiate themselves? Why didn’t the boss ask the AI for the charts to begin with? Everyone’s income is going to be below average, because they got fired.

At any tech company with leveling guidelines that I have seen, promotions above mid level have never been based on “I codez real gud”. It’s always been based on scope, impact and dealing with ambiguity. It’s stated differently in different companies.

No one has ever differentiated themselves based on how good of a ticket taker they are. Coding especially on the enterprise dev side where most developers work has been being commoditized since 2016 at least and compensation has stagnated since then and hasn’t come near keeping up with inflation.

In 2016, a good solid full stack, mobile or web developer working in the enterprise could make $135K working in a second tier city. That’s $185K inflation adjusted today. Those same companies aren’t paying $185K for the same position.

My one anecdote is that the same company I worked for back then making $125K and some of my coworkers were making $135K just posted a position on LinkedIn with the same requirements (SQL Server + C#) offering $145K fully remote.

Re: Average is all you need

#47

Post by chriswait »

I always find it a bit weird to see posts on the front page where all the comments disagree with the central premise of the article. In this case the post is an ad advocating for executing code you didn't write and handing the results to your manager.

It makes me wonder if Hacker News has a silent majority of people who would actually use AI in this way without wanting to admit it, and a vocal minority of people who wouldn't.

Re: Average is all you need

#48

Post by fedeb95 »

yes. Most people are upset and fear losing their job because they feel their job is sub-par. In reality, that's for most of them impostor syndrome, for some could be a wake up call.

Re: Average is all you need

#49

Post by kfk »

This is all fun and games when you work with toy data samples. But most organizations are more complex, they have to match invoices from SAP with opportunities in Hubspot; or they have to consider that little sales territory exception for the sales guy in Munich to calculate the proper commission projection; or they have custom tables in Salesforce with 0 documentation; or... you get my point.

Not all context is documented, and some context has to even be changed because it doesn't make sense.

I find AI very useful, but I think a lot of this AI SQL products are misleading.

Re: Average is all you need

#50

Post by bluegatty »

HWR_14 wrote: post #32
bluegatty wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The power saw makes average cuts, it didn't disemploy carpenters, we just made better homes.

We make more homes, but I would say the construction of the average home is worse after the invention of the power saw than before it.

Good gosh no.

That's like saying 'cars were better made in the 1950's because they used tons of steel'. Like they were 'heavier and more robust' - but that doesn't mean better.

Foundations are way better, more robust, especially weatherized. Windows today are like magic compared to windows 100 years ago.

What we do more poorly now is we don't use wood everywhere, aka doors, and certain kinds of workmanship are not there - like winding staircases, mouldings - but you can easily have that if you want to pay for it. That's a choice.

AI is power and leverage, it will make better things as long as it's directed by skilled operators.

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