As a Pole, I am torn. It would help fight Russian advances for sure, but it would also mean appeasing Israel. Spain's fierce stance against genocide in Palestine would be nearly impossible in a collective EU foreign policy.
Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
41–50 of 64 posts
Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
It was election, but Hungarian democracy is severely lacking and barely a democracy. A miracle happened, because too many people were too pissed at Orban. That does not make the country non autocratic, it means miracle happened and now new guys has all that power.
haha, a miracle happened, people voted someone out, but its NOT a democracy. why is it so needed to try paint it as not a democracy when it has CLEARLY proven that it is such
The favorite can lose a rigged race by accident, but that wouldn't prove it's a fair race.
Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
#43Interesting situation. EU is asking countries to give up their right to veto foreign policy decisions. Any country can veto this proposal. Hmmm, what would I do if giving up the right to veto hinged on my veto power?
> what would I do if giving up the right to veto hinged on my veto power?
Was that a rhetoric question? Of course it is a leap of faith. But the idea is that it will make the union as a whole stronger, and then maybe even giving up your veto right would make it worthwhile.
Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
#44To all against a priori against this, I encourage you to read up on the history and consequences of "liberum veto"
This is very short term thinking. The EU will not survive losing the veto. And it'll happen in under a decade.
The EU survives for as long as it makes financial sense.
Hungary never exited because they're a poverty stricken nation suffering brain drain.
Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
#45Brussels appears to be extremely tone deaf to the basic needs of ordinary people, and taking further steps in a direction to centralize power is just going to push more people to the far right. For example, the fact that right-wing governments in central and eastern Europe are protecting their borders, represents a very popular perspective, apparently shared by very few in the EU governing body. Consolidating power a…
It is really make or break for the EU "regime".
This is because the EU never had a clear goal and so the project cannot be finished if it was to survive.
First it was about harmonizing law and standards, then the Euro and stabilizing and rebuilding the eastern Europe. All those things were good ideas and great successes, but now what?
This is why they really wanted to absorb Turkey 20 years ago, and now Ukraine, Brussels needs a new project so it can justify it's existence and expansion. So it becomes a devouring mother who keep their 40 years old kids at home and try to find new one to adopt.
The EU is also unfortunately a very pre-Internet and pre-globalization project.
Just put yourself in the shoes of the previous generations who had to imagine a system to have Germany, Portugal and Greece adopt standards to be able to work efficiently together? This is a very hard problem in 1970 or 1980.
Today if Greta from Hamburg want to get in business with Portugal she search on Google, send an email, go on a Zoom meeting with real time translation and can pay with a stablecoin. If she need to figure out some laws in Portugal she can ask ChatGPT. This was science fiction 50 years ago.
That is not even necessary, she can go on aliexpress and do business in China instantly. China is not part of the EU but it seems we are very interconnected and do a lot of business with China anyway. And your shipment from China is protected by the Seventh fleet, not the EU.
Protecting the borders or raising an army? those are not things a bureaucracy know how to do or can do... it was not designed for this.
So yes the EU is trying to find a new frontiers: physical, ideological or digital. This is why in recent year it has been a lot about regulating the Internet, social media, porn, crypto, chat, AI, etc. But regulating a technology when the cat is already out of the bag is really hard so they will have to get China level authoritarian to show some results.
Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
#46Interesting situation. EU is asking countries to give up their right to veto foreign policy decisions. Any country can veto this proposal. Hmmm, what would I do if giving up the right to veto hinged on my veto power?
> EU is asking countries to give up their right to veto foreign policy decisions. Any country can veto this proposal.
Hopefully it well be vetoed by more than one. There is no realistic alternative to veto in the situation the EU is in. It could be an option later on, they have to be patient, now is the worst time to move towards coercive powers.
Especially under such a nonsensical pretext:
>> Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
Orban was defeated, democracy worked, veto power is no longer under the threat of abuse, if it ever was. A lot of other issues could be improved in the EU, do that instead of fixing what's not broken.
Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Would you let one or two cities have veto power over the policy of an entire country? And this is why analogies are bad. A few important details: 1) The EU is not a country. 2) The one-country veto already has limited applications within the context of the EU. Foreign policy is one of the most important, but most EU laws start from the Commission and go through Parliament instead where they pass by a simple majorit…
Political structures exist to influence the world around them. A thousand or even a few hundred years ago most people travelled very little and often were born, lived and died in the same village. At that time the village was the natural unit of organisation. As communications improved, with horses, trains, planes, internet the unit of political organisation had to scale up to cities, regions, nations and now supra n…
The nation-state is a current living concept that nation-states and their peoples for the most part are incredibly attached to. If you want to convince the peoples of the EU that is an outdated concept that has lived its time, that is a tough and long road ahead of you, or von der Layen if that is the road she’s pursuing but right now there’s plenty of national governments well beyond Hungary that have been displeased with von der Leyen specifically stepping on their toes.
Right now, the way the EU is constituted, the EU takes a backseat to national governments on most foreign policy. Trade is the biggest exception. Reversing that is as an ask she can make, but it’s an enormous ask that if the member states of the EU concede to, will still be an enormous concession, and it’s not something the EU is structurally positioned under its own Treaties and laws to either command nor demand.
Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is very short term thinking. The EU will not survive losing the veto. And it'll happen in under a decade.
The EU survives for as long as it makes financial sense. Hungary never exited because they're a poverty stricken nation suffering brain drain.
It hasn't made sense for loads of nations since 2008 and they've loudly complained about it, but the political will to leave isn't there due to lack of flashpoint social issues.
Get rid of the veto and that will change.
Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wouldn't put a date in predictions, but wuthout right to veto they're playing harder into the nationalistic propaganda of "Brussel forces us"
https://michalovadek.github.io/eu-veto-tracker/ . It's not just the nationalistic usual suspects that use their veto power. This rightly points out that many issues that are known will have their veto used don't even get brought up. Removal of the veto will stop this and I expect lightning rod topics and disputes to occur much more frequently. Same with the free-riding comment. Removing the veto will expose some nati…
> many issues that are known will have their veto used don't even get brought up.
It's quite disingenuous to blame the veto power for lack of discussion on important issues, if anything it's an argument in favor of the veto, because the only reason to avoid discussion when you lack coercive power is weak arguments... and there's no need to waste time with such nonsense.
> Removing the veto will expose some nations "true colors" in ways that most do not anticipate.
Another slippery argument - there is absolutely no reason to hide the "true colors" of veto-capable members you disagree with, actually the opposite is true, one will have to come up with more, more convincing and true-color-exposing arguments in order to apply pressure via the electorate of the true colors.
> It's not all sunshine and rainbows of agreement among the EU member states.
No it's not, there are shady forces who dream about coercion for the worse.
Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy
#50Interesting situation. EU is asking countries to give up their right to veto foreign policy decisions. Any country can veto this proposal. Hmmm, what would I do if giving up the right to veto hinged on my veto power?
> EU is asking countries to give up their right to veto foreign policy decisions. Any country can veto this proposal. Hopefully it well be vetoed by more than one. There is no realistic alternative to veto in the situation the EU is in. It could be an option later on, they have to be patient, now is the worst time to move towards coercive powers. Especially under such a nonsensical pretext: >> Von der Leyen uses Orbá…
Some think this is one of the major broken thing in the EU, the inability to handle quickly, speak with one voice.
Veto right is actually very undemocratic: A minuscule minority overrules the vast majority. but it was the only way to convince countries to form the EU.
And to be fair, it’s a way of protecting minorities.
> There is no realistic alternative to veto in the situation the EU is in.
Many many people disagree on this. There is no alternative to supporting Ukraine as much as possible. Very uncomfortable truth, shitty situation, and unfortunately, delusion/denial is a very common (and very relatable) human reaction to such situations.