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Where does all the milk go?

dhanishsemar.com

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Re: Where does all the milk go?

#41

Post by mekdoonggi »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #34
mekdoonggi wrote: post #2

A sidenote about unhomogenized milk, it's delicious. I don't know if it actually tastes any different, but something about shaking it up before using it just makes it feel different.

I grew up with homogenized milk, and the mere smell of unhomogenized milk makes me want to vomit. Even boiled milk is awful. Unhomogenized cow milk was slightly more tolerable than unhomogenized ox milk.

Incredibly confused by this comment. Does homogenization alter the smell?

>Even boiled milk is awful What does this have to do with homogenization? I wouldn't want boiled milk either unless it was to be used in a soup or something.

Are you confusing homogenization with pasteurization?

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#42

Post by srean »

efskap wrote: post #32
9rx wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just ask somebody if cows give milk without being pregnant Is that... controversial? Obviously a cow normally gives milk without being pregnant. It wouldn't be able to feed its calf otherwise.

They didn't say during pregnancy. Cows only produce milk after giving birth to a calf, so they're regularly inseminated. I think a lot of people don't realize we're hijacking their reproductive systems, instead assuming cows constantly produce milk. One could argue there's more suffering in a glass of milk than a steak, which makes ethical vegetarianism flawed despite its good intentions.

> One could argue there's more suffering in a glass of milk than a steak

What I find quite bizarre that in India (where I am from) milk is considered ethically vegetarian whereas unfertilized chicken eggs are not.

But the weirdest experience I have ever had was at the main Google cafeteria. One gentleman with a steak on his fresh plate was quizzing the attendant at length to be sure that the mashed potato was vegan. After many months of thinking I found a plausible reason.

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#43

Post by 9rx »

Sharlin wrote: post #28
9rx wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just ask somebody if cows give milk without being pregnant Is that... controversial? Obviously a cow normally gives milk without being pregnant. It wouldn't be able to feed its calf otherwise.

A cow must have been pregnant to produce milk. So it's artificially inseminated and the calf separated (so as not to steal valuable milk) which is arguably traumatic to both the mother and the calf. Most modern people, if they've ever even thought about it at all, likely think that cows are bred to (or naturally do) produce milk without pregnancy being involved, like sheep are bred to grow wool around the year.

> Most people think that cows are simply bred to produce milk without pregnancy

Am I misinterpreting you here? You're saying most people think cows are bred (you know, what causes pregnancy), and presumably think that that calves are born — I've never met anyone who didn't know what a calf is, but somehow don't realize that pregnancy happens inbetween?

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#44

Post by tristor »

comrade1234 wrote: post #12

You can do some of this at home too. I buy raw milk (it's common here in Switzerland) and make paneer or ricotta. Then I boil down the whey and make a fudge-like Norwegian cheese. Another pathway is to start with 35% fat cream or crème fraiche and make butter. Then you use the buttermilk to make cheese. Then you use the whey to make Norwegian cheese OR if you started with crème fraiche you take the sour whey and make…

You don't actually need raw milk to make yogurt. I use Fairlife brand which is ultra-filtered milk, and combine it with a container of plain Fage (active culture Greek yogurt) in a pressure cooker. This is a very common way to make yogurt at home here in the US.

I also grew up on a cattle farm and have made many other products when I was younger from raw milk. There are /some/ things that require raw milk because they are wild cultured, but most food products are not wild cultured when made at home so you can pitch the correct yeast or bacteria with pasteurized milk just fine. One thing that is hard to find in the US and impossible to make without raw milk is Serbian/Turkish kajmak/kaymak.

I even make my own butter at home using ultra processed heavy whipping cream. Raw milk is a great thing in some ways, but it is not in others and in any case not really a requirement to make milk products at home.

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#45

Post by 9rx »

Kerrick wrote: post #38
9rx wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just ask somebody if cows give milk without being pregnant Is that... controversial? Obviously a cow normally gives milk without being pregnant. It wouldn't be able to feed its calf otherwise.

I think there's a linguistically-driven temporal misunderstanding happening here. A cow couldn't have a calf if it hadn't become pregnant. But there's so much to the linguistics of animal husbandry and dairy that many folks don't know. It goes way deeper than just the milk-oriented terms in the article: Heifer versus cow, freshening and calving, steer versus ox versus bull, AI (not the LLM kind) versus natural servic…

> A cow couldn't have a calf if it hadn't become pregnant.

Not just that. A cow couldn't be a cow if she hadn't become pregnant.

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#46

Post by Sharlin »

9rx wrote: post #43
Sharlin wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cow must have been pregnant to produce milk. So it's artificially inseminated and the calf separated (so as not to steal valuable milk) which is arguably traumatic to both the mother and the calf. Most modern people, if they've ever even thought about it at all, likely think that cows are bred to (or naturally do) produce milk without pregnancy being involved, like sheep are bred to grow wool around the year.

> Most people think that cows are simply bred to produce milk without pregnancy Am I misinterpreting you here? You're saying most people think cows are bred (you know, what causes pregnancy), and presumably think that that calves are born — I've never met anyone who didn't know what a calf is, but somehow don't realize that pregnancy happens inbetween?

Yes, you're misinterpreting me. Breeding involves making calves, obviously. But once you get the hypothetical continuously-milk-producing cows, they don't have to make calves. Making more cows can be delegated to cows specialized to making more cows, so cows producing milk for humans can do that without inconvenient pregnancies.

But that's not how it works. Every single milk-producing cow must have been pregnant at least once, and typically several times in its life to keep producing desired amounts of milk. And the calves are an unwanted byproduct that must be taken away. At least they're not shredded in a big blender like the male chicks of egg-laying chicken breeds are.

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#47

Post by 9rx »

Sharlin wrote: post #46
9rx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people think that cows are simply bred to produce milk without pregnancy Am I misinterpreting you here? You're saying most people think cows are bred (you know, what causes pregnancy), and presumably think that that calves are born — I've never met anyone who didn't know what a calf is, but somehow don't realize that pregnancy happens inbetween?

Yes, you're misinterpreting me. Breeding involves making calves, obviously. But once you get the hypothetical continuously-milk-producing cows, they don't have to make calves. Making more cows can be delegated to cows specialized to making more cows, so cows producing milk for humans can do that without inconvenient pregnancies. But that's not how it works. Every single milk-producing cow must have been pregnant at l…

> they don't have to make calves.

Where else are you going to get them from? A calf factory?

> And the calves are an unwanted byproduct

Am I misinterpreting you again? Heifer calves are the prized possession that ensures that your dairy continues into the future. Cows don't last forever (or even all that long).

You maybe had a stronger case for bull calves, but now that modern breeding can select for heifers with ~90% confidence, that's hardly an issue anymore. And, I mean, in this day of age of high-priced beef, even if you get the occasional bull you're not exactly complaining either.

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#48

Post by Sharlin »

9rx wrote: post #47
Sharlin wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you're misinterpreting me. Breeding involves making calves, obviously. But once you get the hypothetical continuously-milk-producing cows, they don't have to make calves. Making more cows can be delegated to cows specialized to making more cows, so cows producing milk for humans can do that without inconvenient pregnancies. But that's not how it works. Every single milk-producing cow must have been pregnant at l…

> they don't have to make calves. Where else are you going to get them from? A calf factory? > And the calves are an unwanted byproduct Am I misinterpreting you again? Heifer calves are the prized possession that ensures that your dairy continues into the future. Cows don't last forever (or even all that long). You maybe had a stronger case for bull calves, but now that modern breeding can select for heifers with ~90…

As I said, I doubt most people think about this at all. But if they do, I find it an entirely reasonable assumption that, as I said, if cows could make milk without making calves, in modern industrial farming the calves would be made by individuals that only make calves, and milk would be made by individuals that only make milk, for efficiency reasons. That's what I would assume, probably.

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#49

Post by [deleted] »

Sharlin wrote: post #48
9rx wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they don't have to make calves. Where else are you going to get them from? A calf factory? > And the calves are an unwanted byproduct Am I misinterpreting you again? Heifer calves are the prized possession that ensures that your dairy continues into the future. Cows don't last forever (or even all that long). You maybe had a stronger case for bull calves, but now that modern breeding can select for heifers with ~90…

As I said, I doubt most people think about this at all. But if they do, I find it an entirely reasonable assumption that, as I said, if cows could make milk without making calves, in modern industrial farming the calves would be made by individuals that only make calves, and milk would be made by individuals that only make milk, for efficiency reasons. That's what I would assume, probably.

[deleted]

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#50

Post by nutjob2 »

magicbuzz wrote: post #31
josefritzishere wrote: post #6

I appreciate the raw milk warning in there. Raw milk kills people ever year. It gets lost in the flood of dairy marketing.

If you were breast-fed, you drank raw milk as a child. And pasteurization removes/diminishes nutrients in milk. It’s much more nuanced than ‘raw milk is bad’.

At that age you've mostly got your mother's immune system, so it's a little different.
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