Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

NYC families need over $125k in income to live in any borough

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 57 posts

Re: NYC families need over $125k in income to live in any borough

#41

Post by rainsford »

brianwawok wrote: post #7
rvz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People in the middle are always squeezed the hardest, and $125k is just the baseline and is below survival in NYC. You have to cut on almost everything to keep most of that money every month. Might be fine for those without families, but for a typical family of 2 or 3 would need double that salary and employers will look at that cost and will scrutinize that and ask: "How do we get that 'cost' (you) significantl…

[flagged]

Sure, there are lots of other places to live in the US that are cheaper. But if you want to live in a true major urban city, the US has managed to produce exactly one of those, with maybe an argument for Chicago followed by a few very distant also rans, despite our size and wealth and the obvious appeal to many people.

As a result, NYC like living is basically out of reach for the majority of the people who might otherwise want it. Nothing against Indiana, but if what you're looking for is bustling megalopolis living, I don't think Indianapolis is going to cut it. And your choices in the US aside from NYC are very limited.

Re: NYC families need over $125k in income to live in any borough

#42

Post by prewett »

dangus wrote: post #22
mc32 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry it may end up like the ‘70s when poor policy started to device large companies to seek greener pastures for their HQ and operations elsewhere. Sometimes politicians think they have them by their noses and can turn up reaction to fix ineptitude, corruption or both but sadly for the politicians people and businesses can vote with their feet.

I love how this thread is talking about bad policy without even discussing any aspect of the policy that is bad. Perhaps we should pull our heads out of the Fox News punch bowl to take a breath. Y’all act like democratic socialist policy can’t work even though we’ve spent the last entire history of our country trying the exact opposite strategy only to have it not work out at all. The current status quo which is obvi…

Apparently the rich have already been moving out of NYC: from 2010 to 2022 the percent of people in the US with $1+ million in federal taxable income dropped from 6% to 4% [1]. A whole bunch left during the pandemic (unsurprisingly), according to [2], but it did not say if they came back afterwards. These aren't great articles, just the first that DDG gave me, but it suggests that there may actually be a trend.

[1] https://nypost.com/2025/08/28/opinion/with-the-rich-already-...

[2] https://capwolf.com/why-millionaires-are-fleeing-new-york-in...

Re: NYC families need over $125k in income to live in any borough

#44

Post by wat10000 »

dangus wrote: post #20
wat10000 wrote: post #11

And yet the median household income is only about $87,000. I’m skeptical.

What’s there to be skeptical about? It’s well known and data-confirmed that wealth has been transferred out of the middle and lower classes in the last half century or so. The people who are making below the median make things work by living in public or rent controlled housing, getting a heck of a lot of roommates, or living in single room apartments with shared bathrooms.

You obviously don’t need that much to live if well over half the city makes less.

Re: NYC families need over $125k in income to live in any borough

#45

Post by dangus »

wat10000 wrote: post #44
dangus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s there to be skeptical about? It’s well known and data-confirmed that wealth has been transferred out of the middle and lower classes in the last half century or so. The people who are making below the median make things work by living in public or rent controlled housing, getting a heck of a lot of roommates, or living in single room apartments with shared bathrooms.

You obviously don’t need that much to live if well over half the city makes less.

Unless the lower half is getting by via overcrowding (living in a small apartment with a large number of roommates or extended family), supplemental nutrition assistance, rent control, etc.

The common example given is how Walmart is the largest employer of people on SNAP in the USA, which equates to corporate welfare. Walmart is directly receiving taxpayer dollars since they don't need to pay employees a living wage.

Re: NYC families need over $125k in income to live in any borough

#46

Post by dangus »

mc32 wrote: post #37
dangus wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how this thread is talking about bad policy without even discussing any aspect of the policy that is bad. Perhaps we should pull our heads out of the Fox News punch bowl to take a breath. Y’all act like democratic socialist policy can’t work even though we’ve spent the last entire history of our country trying the exact opposite strategy only to have it not work out at all. The current status quo which is obvi…

People did move out of NYC and companies did move HQs out to NJ and elsewhere. NYC lost pop during the eighties and didn’t recover its population till 2000. It was an 10% decline in pop[1]. They went from 125 F500 cos based in NYC down to 61 by 1986. Maybe that’s okay with you if it were to repeat but that’s a lot of a tax base leaving for better pastures. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_Ci…

It's important to discuss the reasons for the population dropping in the 1980s and subsequently recovering.

It didn't experience population drops because NYC scared away the businesses and billionaires/millionaires with left-leaning policy. That population loss happened because of macroeconomic trends that were already in motion, as well as local factors that really had very little to do with who was mayor at the time.

Detroit didn't have a population collapse because of who was mayor or what the tax rate on the local businesses was.

Re: NYC families need over $125k in income to live in any borough

#47

Post by dangus »

prewett wrote: post #42
dangus wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how this thread is talking about bad policy without even discussing any aspect of the policy that is bad. Perhaps we should pull our heads out of the Fox News punch bowl to take a breath. Y’all act like democratic socialist policy can’t work even though we’ve spent the last entire history of our country trying the exact opposite strategy only to have it not work out at all. The current status quo which is obvi…

Apparently the rich have already been moving out of NYC: from 2010 to 2022 the percent of people in the US with $1+ million in federal taxable income dropped from 6% to 4% [1]. A whole bunch left during the pandemic (unsurprisingly), according to [2], but it did not say if they came back afterwards. These aren't great articles, just the first that DDG gave me, but it suggests that there may actually be a trend. [1] h…

Interesting then that during that time period 8 skyscrapers were built in Billionaire's Row

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billionaires%27_Row

Your first link is an opinion article from the NY Post, I would not consider that to be unbiased reporting (really, we should not be using the opinion section of any newspaper for any of this).

Second link is a financial industry-oriented source, one I've never heard of in any journalistic capacity, and I am not so sure about their motivations to write an article like that.

For example:

> Quality of Life: Rising crime and strained infrastructure.

Rising crime is factually untrue, and NYC is one of the safest cities of any size in the country. Just one example: https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/PR006/nypd-fewest-murders...

I would also make the argument that primary residence and income tax optimization tricks mean that many of these people with very high incomes still spend a lot of time if not most of their time in NYC. If you're making $1+ million a year in W2 income you most definitely own more than one property and are probably important enough in your work to be able to restructure your income to keep it out of NY State income tax collection. Get paid in stock options, or send your paycheck down to your Florida condo and totally live there 6 months out of the year.

Re: NYC families need over $125k in income to live in any borough

#48

Post by wat10000 »

dangus wrote: post #45
wat10000 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously don’t need that much to live if well over half the city makes less.

Unless the lower half is getting by via overcrowding (living in a small apartment with a large number of roommates or extended family), supplemental nutrition assistance, rent control, etc. The common example given is how Walmart is the largest employer of people on SNAP in the USA, which equates to corporate welfare. Walmart is directly receiving taxpayer dollars since they don't need to pay employees a living wage.

I’m extremely skeptical that well over half of NYC households are in such dire straits.

But even if that’s the case, it doesn’t say “to live alone” or “to live without government assistance.” It just says “to live.”

I don’t think having roommates or a rent-controlled apartment is so terrible that it wouldn’t qualify as “living.” It doesn’t have to be completely literal. If it meant not being homeless, I could work with that. But a number that’s more than 50% higher than the median? I don’t know what the heck it means “to live” in that case. It clearly means something well beyond what the average New Yorker actually has, but I don’t know what and I don’t know why you’d call that “living.”

Re: NYC families need over $125k in income to live in any borough

#49

Post by dangus »

wat10000 wrote: post #48
dangus wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the lower half is getting by via overcrowding (living in a small apartment with a large number of roommates or extended family), supplemental nutrition assistance, rent control, etc. The common example given is how Walmart is the largest employer of people on SNAP in the USA, which equates to corporate welfare. Walmart is directly receiving taxpayer dollars since they don't need to pay employees a living wage.

I’m extremely skeptical that well over half of NYC households are in such dire straits. But even if that’s the case, it doesn’t say “to live alone” or “to live without government assistance.” It just says “to live.” I don’t think having roommates or a rent-controlled apartment is so terrible that it wouldn’t qualify as “living.” It doesn’t have to be completely literal. If it meant not being homeless, I could work wi…

It's literally in the first sentence of the article:

"New York families need six-figure incomes to live without government assistance in all five boroughs of New York City, according to two new reports."

Re: NYC families need over $125k in income to live in any borough

#50

Post by wat10000 »

dangus wrote: post #49
wat10000 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m extremely skeptical that well over half of NYC households are in such dire straits. But even if that’s the case, it doesn’t say “to live alone” or “to live without government assistance.” It just says “to live.” I don’t think having roommates or a rent-controlled apartment is so terrible that it wouldn’t qualify as “living.” It doesn’t have to be completely literal. If it meant not being homeless, I could work wi…

It's literally in the first sentence of the article: "New York families need six-figure incomes to live without government assistance in all five boroughs of New York City, according to two new reports."

I thought the first sentence was "Get unlimited access for just $1.99 your first month." Or maybe "We've updated our terms."

Anyway, I don't trust media summaries of reports. The bit of the article I can see mentions two new reports, but I can only see a link to one, which is three years old.

That report says it's based on something called the "NYC True Cost of Living" which does actually have a 2026 edition: https://www.fcny.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/03/NYC2026_TCL_...

That report lists a $125,814/year "cost of meeting basic needs" for the lowest amount of any borough, which fits the headline. But that figure is also based on having one preschool child, which according to the report costs $33,000 for child care. Lots of families don't, so their figure would be substantially less. The report says that 46% of working-age NYC households fall below the True Cost of Living, which certainly doesn't fit with that cost being so much higher than the median income, even considering the "working-age" qualifier.

The 2023 edition of the report has a lot more details: https://selfsufficiencystandard.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/.... If I'm reading that right, they're calculating housing costs at the 40th percentile in a given area, which doesn't make any sense when calculating the minimum needed. In this case, the areas are entire boroughs, or borough halves for Manhattan and Brooklyn.

I see this kind of nonsense all over the place. Random example: https://www.investopedia.com/minimum-wage-earners-can-not-co.... "There are no major American cities that hold an average monthly rental cost which is 30% of a minimum wage earner's gross income." OK, why would we compare the minimum wage with the average rent? If you want to find out what people can afford, you need to look at the lowest available cost, not the average.

So, I remain skeptical of the claim made by this article.

Post reply on HN