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Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

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Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#41

Post by dainank »

hax0ron3 wrote: post #7

It's wild to think how long very human-like beings and modern humans existed before the technological revolution really took off. Hundreds of thousands of years of existing on the technological level of stone tools, spears, cloth made out of hides, and fire. Then at some unknown point probably in the last 100,000 years, the bow and arrow. Then about 12,000 years ago, the agricultural revolution, which probably unlock…

I think it is also interesting to realize that we have had a huge population boom since the last 50 years or so, thus currently, the entire world population alive makes up roughly 8% of the entire population of the world since the existence of Homo Sapiens. In summary, if you were to be randomly born as a human, you would most likely be born in the latter centuries, rather than the early ones, since the sheer amount being born recently than many years ago is so much more.

https://www.sifrun.com/how-many-people-have-ever-lived-on-ea...

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#42

Post by riffraff »

tren wrote: post #6
lobf wrote: post #3

I spent a year of high school in the Basque Country, and it always stuck out to me that a common feature of the Basques, especially the beefy ones, was incredibly caveman-like. I know this is not unique to this population, but I also always wondered if it correlated to the fact that it is one of the historic Neanderthal populations. I have a photo of a dude I used to play soccer with that looks like I put a Neanderth…

My Dad wrote an article about this 25 years ago or so: https://aoi.com.au/LB/LB705/ (How the Neanderthals became the Basques). He would really get a kick out of people reading it (he's 90 now). His website goes back to 96' and it shows.

It was a fun read!

Although one of the references goes to a now dead "reptilian agenda" website which might have been even more interesting:)

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#43

Post by tehnub »

riffraff wrote: post #33
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

In things like the battle of Cajamarca the Incan lost a battle against the Spanish with 8000 warriors against 150. All the 150 survived. Disease was important but there was a large technological and cultural gap too (e.g. the Incan didn't fight at night!).

I just read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca

It seems like the Incans were overconfident and didn't expect a surprise attack (didn't have their weapons, only a small retinue around the rule in ceremonial garb instead of armor), and then the 8000 warriors were outside and didn't even attempt to fight the Spaniards because they were so demoralized.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#44

Post by poisonarena »

melagonster wrote: post #22
tyre wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then about 12,000 years ago, the agricultural revolution, which probably unlocked much of the subsequent technological progress by enabling more food security and larger populations. It definitely did. Also note that agriculture was invented in multiple places over time. Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough, so they had far less time for technological development before Europeans arr…

The Inca Empire had crazy plant breeding techniques.

they also didn't even invent the wheel

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#45

Post by mock-possum »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #38
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

There was a hemorrhagic fever in ~1545 an ~1576 that killed tens of millions of people. This is well-documented. The exact nature of this hemorrhagic fever is a major open question in the history of North America, and the natives attested its existence before the Europeans arrived AFAIK. We know about hantavirus in the southwestern US and Mexico but that seems unlikely to be the source based on its epidemiology. This…

> There was a hemorrhagic fever in ~1545 an ~1576 that killed tens of millions of people

I haven’t heard of this - do you have any material to recommend on the subject?

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#46

Post by Retric »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #38
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

There was a hemorrhagic fever in ~1545 an ~1576 that killed tens of millions of people. This is well-documented. The exact nature of this hemorrhagic fever is a major open question in the history of North America, and the natives attested its existence before the Europeans arrived AFAIK. We know about hantavirus in the southwestern US and Mexico but that seems unlikely to be the source based on its epidemiology. This…

1545 is well after European contact and close enough that it seems unlikely to be a coincidence. 1519–1521: Hernán Cortés conquers the Aztec Empire. 1532–1533: Francisco Pizarro conquers the Inca Empire.

Further low 10’s of millions of deaths on its own really doesn’t explain the 90% population drop across several hundred years here. Smallpox killed between 65% to 95% of Native American populations but it was far from alone. We’re talking devastating plague after plague for generations which canceled out the tendency for populations to rebound when competition is low. Something like 200+ million deaths on the conservative side over a few hundred years not just one or two devastating but short lived outbreaks.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#47

Post by vasco »

riffraff wrote: post #33
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

In things like the battle of Cajamarca the Incan lost a battle against the Spanish with 8000 warriors against 150. All the 150 survived. Disease was important but there was a large technological and cultural gap too (e.g. the Incan didn't fight at night!).

Around the same time, 460 men in 6 ships destroyed 30000 men in 400 ships taking over Ormuz. Portugal and Spain were just incredibly OP during that time period. And the people in Ormuz were more advanced than the natives in US. And they still got absolutely destroyed.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#48

Post by alsetmusic »

AJMaxwell wrote: post #24
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

The lack of animals to domesticate meant fewer zoonotic diseases in Native American populations, so they were ill equipped when those diseases appeared. IIRC, there was a massive plague in North America a decade or so before Columbus arrived.

So a lack of animal husbandry is the same as lower technology and a lack of farming.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#49

Post by firecall »

Fricken wrote: post #15
hax0ron3 wrote: post #7

It's wild to think how long very human-like beings and modern humans existed before the technological revolution really took off. Hundreds of thousands of years of existing on the technological level of stone tools, spears, cloth made out of hides, and fire. Then at some unknown point probably in the last 100,000 years, the bow and arrow. Then about 12,000 years ago, the agricultural revolution, which probably unlock…

Also nukes. We've got the whole place rigged to blow in case a few of us just doesn't feel like it anymore.

We are all just evolving on vibes at this point ;-)

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#50

Post by fleroviumna »

alsetmusic wrote: post #35
tyre wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then about 12,000 years ago, the agricultural revolution, which probably unlocked much of the subsequent technological progress by enabling more food security and larger populations. It definitely did. Also note that agriculture was invented in multiple places over time. Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough, so they had far less time for technological development before Europeans arr…

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