I don't have much love for Java - it's an OK statically typed language - but I have the utmost respect for the Java runtime environment.
Clojure is a beautiful Lisp, and coupled with the JVM it's extremely powerful.
Clojure: The Documentary, official trailer [video]
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Re: Clojure: The Documentary, official trailer [video]
#42> `a -> a`; `[a] -> [a]`; It means nothing! It tells you nothing ! — Rich Hickey, Effective Programs [0] [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V1FtfBDsLU&t=4020s --- A disastrously poor take. I used to work at a Clojure company, and there's no chance I'd ever go back to that.
I worked for a startup that used clojure and found it so frustrating because, following the idiomatic style, pathways passed maps around, added keys to maps, etc. For any definition which received some such map, you had to read the whole pathway to understand what was expected to be in it (and therefore how you could call it, modify it, etc).
I think the thing is that yes, `[a] -> [a]` tells you relatively little about the particular relationship between lists that the function achieves, but in other languages such a signature tells you _everything_ about:
- what you need to call invoke it
- what the implementation can assume about its argument
i.e. how to use or change the function is much clearer
Re: Clojure: The Documentary, official trailer [video]
#43Is this lang for web dev?
clojure itself is a joy to use, on the web or outside of it BUT it doesn't have the equivalent of rails, mostly because lispers are an opinionated bunch and can't come together to agree on how web development should be done the frameworks that do exist are more of a collections of libraries with some plumbing to connect the dots
Which in reality isn't a problem, once you absorb the ideas of Clojure and try to apply them when using Clojure. Composition of well picked libraries beat batteries-included frameworks for most use cases, both short term and long term, at least in 99% of the cases I'm writing Clojure/Script code.
Re: Clojure: The Documentary, official trailer [video]
#44I have been writing Clojure since 2017. Unlike every other language that helps you achieve a task, Clojure helped me think. Clojure for me is a rich vocabulary to talk interact with data. When Jank becomes stable, Clojure will be unstoppable.
I’ve been writing ClojureScript now for around a decade. I tried to get into Clojure many times, but as someone with no Java experience, the JVM really makes it unbearable. I ended up trying Elixir though and absolutely loved it.
Both Clojure and Elixir really changed the way I think about programming. They’ve both basically ruined me as far as other languages go. Structural editing + repo driven development in Clojure, BEAM + pattern matching in elixir.
But there is something just infinitely more fun about writing Clojure code, and insanely satisfying. I’m eagerly awaiting the day that jank takes off and I can start building native mobile apps in Clojure (and who knows, maybe some web backend tech stack will spring up around it!)
Re: Clojure: The Documentary, official trailer [video]
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
cljfmt is included with both Clojure-LSP and CIDER, so if you have either installed it should work out of the box. With LSP mode the standard `lsp-format-region` and `lsp-format-buffer` commands should work, and on the CIDER side `cider-format-defun`, `cider-format-region` and `cider-format-buffer` should also invoke cljfmt.
Hey! Thanks for creating the package =) I'll need to try the integration again.
I'll add a note to the cljfmt README to tell people about these commands, as your experience shows that it might not be obvious to people that they likely already have access to cljfmt in Emacs as a result of using LSP or CIDER.
Re: Clojure: The Documentary, official trailer [video]
#46I've been running my business for 10 years now, relying on Clojure and ClojureScript. It is amazing to be able to base one's livelihood on a foundation that is so stable and well designed. Clojure has been designed by a very smart and very experienced person, and it shows. It has then been maintained and extended by a team built around a culture of maturity and stability, and the result is something you can rely on.…
I would love to use Clojure but there are basically no jobs in my area with the language. Seems like the Nordics like Clojure but I'd need to move. The very good backwards compatibility is attractive but as the result of the small community, there's also a lot of abandoned packages and fewer QoL packages (formatters, linters, etc); I know there are some but for example I had setup `cljfmt` in Emacs and it wouldn't wo…
> I would love to use Clojure but there are basically no jobs in my area with the language
I created my own job :-)
(although there are Clojure jobs in my area)
Re: Clojure: The Documentary, official trailer [video]
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would love to use Clojure but there are basically no jobs in my area with the language. Seems like the Nordics like Clojure but I'd need to move. The very good backwards compatibility is attractive but as the result of the small community, there's also a lot of abandoned packages and fewer QoL packages (formatters, linters, etc); I know there are some but for example I had setup `cljfmt` in Emacs and it wouldn't wo…
> I would love to use Clojure but there are basically no jobs in my area with the language I created my own job :-) (although there are Clojure jobs in my area)
Always a solution ofc!
Re: Clojure: The Documentary, official trailer [video]
#48I've been running my business for 10 years now, relying on Clojure and ClojureScript. It is amazing to be able to base one's livelihood on a foundation that is so stable and well designed. Clojure has been designed by a very smart and very experienced person, and it shows. It has then been maintained and extended by a team built around a culture of maturity and stability, and the result is something you can rely on.…
I would love to use Clojure but there are basically no jobs in my area with the language. Seems like the Nordics like Clojure but I'd need to move. The very good backwards compatibility is attractive but as the result of the small community, there's also a lot of abandoned packages and fewer QoL packages (formatters, linters, etc); I know there are some but for example I had setup `cljfmt` in Emacs and it wouldn't wo…
There are still Clojure remote positions. Thankfully, I have used Clojure professionally long enough that my core ability shouldn't atrophy too much now that we have moved away from it at my current position. I am looking forward to Jank actually.
Re: Clojure: The Documentary, official trailer [video]
#49I have been writing Clojure since 2017. Unlike every other language that helps you achieve a task, Clojure helped me think. Clojure for me is a rich vocabulary to talk interact with data. When Jank becomes stable, Clojure will be unstoppable.
I’ve been writing ClojureScript now for around a decade. I tried to get into Clojure many times, but as someone with no Java experience, the JVM really makes it unbearable. I ended up trying Elixir though and absolutely loved it. Both Clojure and Elixir really changed the way I think about programming. They’ve both basically ruined me as far as other languages go. Structural editing + repo driven development in Cloju…
https://janet-lang.org is already Clojure without the JVM
Re: Clojure: The Documentary, official trailer [video]
#50I've been running my business for 10 years now, relying on Clojure and ClojureScript. It is amazing to be able to base one's livelihood on a foundation that is so stable and well designed. Clojure has been designed by a very smart and very experienced person, and it shows. It has then been maintained and extended by a team built around a culture of maturity and stability, and the result is something you can rely on.…
I would love to use Clojure but there are basically no jobs in my area with the language. Seems like the Nordics like Clojure but I'd need to move. The very good backwards compatibility is attractive but as the result of the small community, there's also a lot of abandoned packages and fewer QoL packages (formatters, linters, etc); I know there are some but for example I had setup `cljfmt` in Emacs and it wouldn't wo…
VS Code and its forks (Cursor, Antigravity, etc.) have Calva, a fantastic REPL with excellent linter Kondo. These are amazing tools; formatting is the very least of it. You don't need Emacs. I personally using VS Code + Doom Emacs. Also, many packages that look abandoned are simply mature. You can literally use ten year old packages.
I'm not a hot shot programmer, entirely self-taught but a decent architect who thinks hard about problems, and with LLM agents Clojure shines for me. There are some fantastic databases also starting with Datomic -- free now thanks to Nubank -- and everything inspired by it and the Clojure flavor of Datalog. These include Datalevin, Datahike, DataScript, XTDB. Datomic itself is probably best for enterprise though there's now an embedded version.
But I'm pretty convinced that most LLMs I've used are more reliable with Clojure (and Elixir) than with most of the popular languages, and I can say they use Datalog extremely well, seemingly much better than SQL despite the vast difference in corpus size. For one thing Datalog just gets rid of joins issues.