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Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

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Re: Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

#41

Post by fifilura »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #39
nDRDY wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A significant source of electricty is generated from waste-to-power plants in the Nordics. Several of those countries import rubbish by the shipload to turn into power. For that matter, it's probably a net positive to put most plastic "recycling" into such schemes, as we're just turning plastic products into lower and lower grade pieces, with the associated generation of microplastics.

Combustion with energy recovery is slightly lower down the "Waste hierarchy" than recycling. Nordics get even more bonus points if they use the waste heat for district heating after generating electricity but I think it still comes out as a bit worse than recycling overall. There's complicated interactions though, removing the plastics can affect the makeup of the fuel and the post combustion products can free recycl…

> Nordics get even more bonus points if they use the waste heat for district heating after generating electricity.

Waste -> district heating is definitely happening in Sweden. Probably more so than waste -> electricity. There are better ways to generate electricity and we need heating anyway big part of the season.

Re: Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

#42

Post by RealityVoid »

notTooFarGone wrote: post #38
bluegatty wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Green Party of Germany is the most damaging institution of them all. They are responsible for the situation by spreading ideological disinformation and fear mongering. Otherwise Germany and others would be in the same position as France.

Wow - a nuclear-head in the wild. Tell me please how building nuclear plants today will solve our problems in the 15-20 years it takes to build them. Or how the conservative party did phase out nuclear? They were 16 years at the helm, why couldn't they stop it? But no the fringe party is at fault for everything. That rhetoric is both completely unfounded and basically far-right propaganda. Congratulations - you got t…

They could have... You know... Not closed the existing running nuclear power plants at all? The greens pushed a lot for that. I admit, the future looks good for solar. But to hell and back if I don't prefer a nuclear power plant to a fossil fuel one.

Re: Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

#43

Post by blitzar »

RealityVoid wrote: post #42
notTooFarGone wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow - a nuclear-head in the wild. Tell me please how building nuclear plants today will solve our problems in the 15-20 years it takes to build them. Or how the conservative party did phase out nuclear? They were 16 years at the helm, why couldn't they stop it? But no the fringe party is at fault for everything. That rhetoric is both completely unfounded and basically far-right propaganda. Congratulations - you got t…

They could have... You know... Not closed the existing running nuclear power plants at all? The greens pushed a lot for that. I admit, the future looks good for solar. But to hell and back if I don't prefer a nuclear power plant to a fossil fuel one.

> Not closed the existing running nuclear power plants at all?

How many more years would you run a plant commissioned in the 1980's for?

Re: Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

#44

Post by notTooFarGone »

RealityVoid wrote: post #42
notTooFarGone wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow - a nuclear-head in the wild. Tell me please how building nuclear plants today will solve our problems in the 15-20 years it takes to build them. Or how the conservative party did phase out nuclear? They were 16 years at the helm, why couldn't they stop it? But no the fringe party is at fault for everything. That rhetoric is both completely unfounded and basically far-right propaganda. Congratulations - you got t…

They could have... You know... Not closed the existing running nuclear power plants at all? The greens pushed a lot for that. I admit, the future looks good for solar. But to hell and back if I don't prefer a nuclear power plant to a fossil fuel one.

I agree on that fully - but that is a completely different point. The Lifetime extension and the costs associated to that are not clear to me. But of course letting an already paid project run is a no brainer if the costs are not blowing up.

I don't like the assumption that this calculation was not done by the book due to the greens being in charge of that. It's always the question: Lifetime extension can cost a lot and maybe it only buys 5 years. Basically I assume there was a € price and it was too high to pay. Maybe CDU would've payed that price but I don't think either is wrong.

Re: Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

#45

Post by eqvinox »

leonidasrup wrote: post #25
eqvinox wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean… I certainly didn't take a lot of care in wording that, but you need to read it in context of the parent post. Rather than "done", saying "committed and sealed" would've been precise. But it's a response to the parent, which squarely attempted to blame the greens, when it is certainly not solely their achievement. > People joke about Trump being a Russian asset, the SPD & green party are staffed by kremlin loy…

Gazprom has financially supported both SPD and CDU in Germany, indirectly through lobby organizations such as VNG (Verbundnetz Gas), Deutsch-Russische Rohstoff-Forum. https://correctiv.org/en/latest-stories/2022/10/07/gazprom-l...

I did say I won't argue about SPD ;)

Re: Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

#46

Post by temp8830 »

eviks wrote: post #19
temp8830 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least they didn't forget to use the exact phrase "full-scale invasion" everywhere, including what was supposed to be a direct quote. It's really quite funny. I think the former chief editor of Pravda now holds a high rank in the EU propaganda apparatus. They famously had to repeat the same cliched phrases ad nauseum to reinforce them.

They did, 2 of 4 mentions don't have "full-scale". Count before laughing.

Ah yes, Russian bot can't count. But now that this cliche has been pointed out to you - you won't be able to unsee it. You're welcome ;)

Re: Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

#47

Post by bluegatty »

notTooFarGone wrote: post #38
bluegatty wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Green Party of Germany is the most damaging institution of them all. They are responsible for the situation by spreading ideological disinformation and fear mongering. Otherwise Germany and others would be in the same position as France.

Wow - a nuclear-head in the wild. Tell me please how building nuclear plants today will solve our problems in the 15-20 years it takes to build them. Or how the conservative party did phase out nuclear? They were 16 years at the helm, why couldn't they stop it? But no the fringe party is at fault for everything. That rhetoric is both completely unfounded and basically far-right propaganda. Congratulations - you got t…

Complete wrong on every count, but also hostile and ignorant

1) The German Green movement killed nuclear decades ago, not 'now' - otherwise those plants would have already been built.

2) The conservatives parties have been pro-nuclear forever - they phased out Nuclear due to populist concerns, not ideological.

3) This is not even controversial - this is literally just political history on the continent.

4) "basically far-right propaganda. " good god, grow up. Not every bit of history is 'propaganda', and I'm not a German Voter.

>> Nuclear Energy on the Continent and in many other places was killed by the Green Party movement In Germany specifically [1] the data shows decisively an acute, anti-Nuclear populist sentiment, as a result of the 'Green' movement.

The German Green movement used 'radicalism' and 'propaganda' ate away at public reason - the evidence for this is how far away the German data point was from everywhere else.

It's why Russia is powerful, partly why Europe cannot support it's own industrial basis.

It's an existential problem, and Nuclear needs to be part of the Energy mix.

[1] https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-fu...

Re: Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

#48

Post by bluegatty »

notTooFarGone wrote: post #44
RealityVoid wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could have... You know... Not closed the existing running nuclear power plants at all? The greens pushed a lot for that. I admit, the future looks good for solar. But to hell and back if I don't prefer a nuclear power plant to a fossil fuel one.

I agree on that fully - but that is a completely different point. The Lifetime extension and the costs associated to that are not clear to me. But of course letting an already paid project run is a no brainer if the costs are not blowing up. I don't like the assumption that this calculation was not done by the book due to the greens being in charge of that. It's always the question: Lifetime extension can cost a lot…

No - it's not a completely different point.

The Greens - out of ideological fear mongering - forced the end of Nuclear, just like they forced the end of new construction decades ago, and keep the German public in fear.

Re: Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

#49

Post by bluegatty »

blitzar wrote: post #43
RealityVoid wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could have... You know... Not closed the existing running nuclear power plants at all? The greens pushed a lot for that. I admit, the future looks good for solar. But to hell and back if I don't prefer a nuclear power plant to a fossil fuel one.

> Not closed the existing running nuclear power plants at all? How many more years would you run a plant commissioned in the 1980's for?

A very long time with maintenance, upkeep many are going to have 60 year lifespans and theoretically 80-100 years. Some are planned for 80 years.

In the meantime, every day that goes by without building more, is the a day without the ability to walk away from Russian or Gulf oil.

Re: Europe sleepwalked into yet another energy crisis

#50

Post by notTooFarGone »

bluegatty wrote: post #47
notTooFarGone wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow - a nuclear-head in the wild. Tell me please how building nuclear plants today will solve our problems in the 15-20 years it takes to build them. Or how the conservative party did phase out nuclear? They were 16 years at the helm, why couldn't they stop it? But no the fringe party is at fault for everything. That rhetoric is both completely unfounded and basically far-right propaganda. Congratulations - you got t…

Complete wrong on every count, but also hostile and ignorant 1) The German Green movement killed nuclear decades ago, not 'now' - otherwise those plants would have already been built. 2) The conservatives parties have been pro-nuclear forever - they phased out Nuclear due to populist concerns, not ideological. 3) This is not even controversial - this is literally just political history on the continent. 4) "basically…

So do you hold a grudge or why are you talking in the fucking past? Conservatives lacking a spine is now "they phased out Nuclear due to populist concerns" ok.

Is your solution to look in the past and blame everyone to solve the problems today?

Of course in Hindsight phasing out nuclear so fast was a mistake. Does that solve our problems now?

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