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Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

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Re: Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

#41

Post by rustyhancock »

vladms wrote: post #26

Very reasonable stance. I see reviewing and accepting a PR is a question of trust - you trust the submitter to have done the most he can for the PR to be correct and useful. Something might be required now as some people might think that just asking an LLM is "the most he can done", but it's not about using AI it's about being aware and responsible about using it.

Important though we generally assume few bad actors.

But like the XZ attack, we kind of have to assume that advanced perissitant threats are a reality for FOSS too.

I can envisage a Sybil attack where several seemingly disaparate contributors are actually one actor building a backdoor.

Right now we have a disparity in that many contributors can use LLMs but the recieving projects aren't able to review them as effectively with LLMs.

LLM generated content often (perhaps by definition) seems acceptable to LLMs. This is the critical issue.

If we had means of effectively assessing PRs objectively that would make this moot.

I wonder if those is a whole new class of issue. Is judging a PR harder than making one? It seems so right now

Re: Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

#42

Post by glhaynes »

aerodexis wrote: post #28
sheepscreek wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. “AI” contributions should be seen as an extension of the individual. If anything, they could ask that the account belong to a person and not be a second bot only account. Basically, a person’s own reputation should be on the line.

Interesting argument for AI ethics in general. It takes the form of "guns don't kill people - people kill people".

An argument that I have some sympathy for, while still being moderately+ in favor of gun control (here in the USA where I'm a citizen).

It seems that gun control—though imperfect—in regions that have implemented it has had a good bit of success and the legitimate/non-harmful capabilities lost seem worth it to me in trade for the gains. (Reasonable people can disagree here!)

Whereas it seems to me that if we accept the proposition that the vast majority of code in the future is going to be written by AI (and I do), these valuable projects that are taking hard-line stances against it are going to find themselves either having to retreat from that position or facing insurmountable difficulties in staying relevant while holding to their stance.

Re: Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

#43

Post by [deleted] »

est31 wrote: post #38

I think it's a complicated issue. A lot of low quality AI contributions arrive using free tiers of these AI models, the output of which is pretty crap. On the other hand, if you max out the model configs, i.e. get "the best money can buy", then those models are actually quite useful and powerful. OSS should not miss out on the power LLMs can unleash. Talking about the maxed out versions of the newest models only, i.e…

[deleted]

Re: Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

#44

Post by mrbungie »

AlexandrB wrote: post #32
mrbungie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way niche/luxury product and services compare to fast/cheap ones: they are made with focus and intent that goes against the statistical average, which also normally would take more time and effort to make. McDonalds cooks ~great~ (edit: fair enough, decent) burgers when measured objectively, but people still go to more niche burger restaurants because they want something different and made with more care. Th…

> McDonalds cooks great burgers when measured objectively Wait, what? In what world are McDonalds burgers "great"? They're cheap . Maybe even a good value. But that's not the same as great .

Fair enough, I should've said borderline decent.

Re: Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

#45

Post by the_biot »

lpcvoid wrote: post #30
__alexs wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came from a poor background and stole pretty much all the textbooks I used to learn programming as a kid. I also stole all the music I listened to while studying them. Is everything I write slop for the same reason?

No. You're a human, who went through real life experiences. You learned, developed as a human being. You made mistakes and grew from them. You did what you have to do to advance. What you output has intrinsic value because of all this. I argue that even when you roll your face on your keyboard, the output is more valuable than ten pages of slop output from an LLM, since it's human, with all the history, experience, e…

A quote from Neuromancer comes to mind:

   "But I ain't likely to write you no poem, if you follow me. Your AI, it just might. But it ain't no way human.”

Re: Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

#46

Post by hombre_fatal »

SlinkyOnStairs wrote: post #36
sheepscreek wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. “AI” contributions should be seen as an extension of the individual. If anything, they could ask that the account belong to a person and not be a second bot only account. Basically, a person’s own reputation should be on the line.

Reputation isn't very relevant here. Yes, for established well known FOSS developers, their reputation will tank if they put out sloppy PRs and people will just ignore them. But the projects aren't drowning under PRs from reputable people. They're drowning in drive-by PRs from people with no reputation to speak of. Even if you outright ban their account, they'll just spin up a new one and try again. Blocking AI submi…

Well, the problem you just outlined is a reputation (+ UI) problem: why are contributions from unknown contributors shown at the same level as PRs from known quality contributors, for example?

We need to rethink some UX design and processes here, not pretend low quality people are going to follow your "no low quality pls i'm serious >:(" rules. Rather, design the processes against low quality.

Also, we're in a new world where code-change PRs are trivial, and the hard part isn't writing code anymore but generating the spec. Maybe we don't even allow PRs anymore except for trusted contributors, everyone else can only create an issue and help refine a plan there which the code impl is derived?

You know, even before LLMs, it would have been pretty cool if we had a better process around deliberating and collaborating around a plan before the implementation step of any non-trivial code change. Changing code in a PR with no link to discussion around what the impl should actually look like always did feel like the cart before the horse.

Re: Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

#47

Post by sigbottle »

lpcvoid wrote: post #30
__alexs wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came from a poor background and stole pretty much all the textbooks I used to learn programming as a kid. I also stole all the music I listened to while studying them. Is everything I write slop for the same reason?

No. You're a human, who went through real life experiences. You learned, developed as a human being. You made mistakes and grew from them. You did what you have to do to advance. What you output has intrinsic value because of all this. I argue that even when you roll your face on your keyboard, the output is more valuable than ten pages of slop output from an LLM, since it's human, with all the history, experience, e…

I don't know why this got downvoted. I've already been so frustrated by HN LIDAR mindsets but holy shit.

Human society exists because we value humans, full stop. The easiest way to "solve" all of humanity's problems is to simply say that humans aren't valuable. Sometimes it feels like we're conceding a ridiculous amount of ground on that basic principle every year - one more human value gone because it "doesn't matter", so hey, we've obviously made progress!

Re: Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

#48

Post by datsci_est_2015 »

glhaynes wrote: post #42
aerodexis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting argument for AI ethics in general. It takes the form of "guns don't kill people - people kill people".

An argument that I have some sympathy for, while still being moderately+ in favor of gun control (here in the USA where I'm a citizen). It seems that gun control—though imperfect—in regions that have implemented it has had a good bit of success and the legitimate/non-harmful capabilities lost seem worth it to me in trade for the gains. (Reasonable people can disagree here!) Whereas it seems to me that if we accept th…

> It seems that gun control—though imperfect—in regions that have implemented it has had a good bit of success and the legitimate/non-harmful capabilities lost seem worth it to me in trade for the gains.

This is even true despite the fact that there are bad actors only a few minutes drive away in many cases (Chicago->Indiana border, for example).

Re: Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

#49

Post by darkwater »

datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #33
hombre_fatal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "on a long enough timeline", but you already can't tell today in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing. I think a lot of anti-LLM opinions just come from interacting with the lowest effort LLM slop and someone not realizing that it's really a problem with a low value person behind it. It's why "no AI allowed" is pointless; high value contributors won't follow it because they know how to use it pro…

> It's why "no AI allowed" is pointless … If you tell me AI isn't allowed because it writes bad code I disagree that the rule is pointless, and your last point is a strawman. AI is disallowed because it’s the manner in which the would-be contributors are attempting to contribute to these projects. It’s a proxy rule. Unfortunately for AI maximalists, code is more than just letters on the screen. There needs to be huma…

> and if you’re not a core contributor who’s proven you’re willing to stick around when shit hits the fan, a +3000 PR is a liability, not an asset.

And in the context of high-value contributors that GP was mentioning, they are never going to land a +3000 PR because they know there is going to be a human reviewer on the other side.

Re: Debian decides not to decide on AI-generated contributions

#50

Post by jacquesm »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #17
lpcvoid wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All LLM-output is slop. There's no good LLM output. It's stolen code, stolen literature, stolen media condensed into the greatest heist of the 21. century. Perfect capitalism - big LLM companies don't need to pay royalties to humans, while selling access to a service which generates monthly revenue.

Whether it trained on real world "stolen" code is an implementation detail. A controversial one, but it isn't a supporting argument for whether it can write high quality, functional code or not.

Sorry, but no, that is not a detail, that is a major sticking point for me.
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