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Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

github.com

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Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#41

Post by onionisafruit »

riskable wrote: post #30
meatmanek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(c) “Application” means a software application that may be run or directed by a user on a computer, a mobile device, or any other general purpose computing device that can access a covered application store or download an application.

The calculator firmware is a "software application" that's run by a user on a mobile device but it can't access an application store or download applications. For that you need a PC. So github.com is the violator, here, since it's a software application that may be run by a user on a computer and can download applications (loads of them!).

I've read through the CA law a couple of times and can't figure out what an application store is supposed to do. What part of the law would github violate?

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#42

Post by Brian_K_White »

thayne wrote: post #34
tliltocatl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Linux it will be way more problematic because: - A lot of of corporate contributions comes from SV. - Linux Foundation is incorporated in CA. - Linus himself is CA's resident AFAIR. So there is zero chance of claiming no jurisdiction. The only hope is whoever is enforcing this batshit wouldn't go after what is essentially not an OS for the purpose of the bill, but rather an internal component (it would be like go…

It's more likely to be an issue for distributions like Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc. Although, if I'm understanding this correctly, I think all they would have to do to comply is have something during installation that asks for the age category, and write a file that is world readable, but only writable by root that contains that category that applications can read.

That is already way too much as far as I'm concerned. It's not that it's difficult, it's that it's arbitrary and a form of commanded speech or action. Smallness and easiness isn't an excuse.

If you write a story, there must be a character in it somewhere that reminds kids not to smoke. That's all. It's very easy.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#43

Post by iamnothere »

mijoharas wrote: post #40

Ignoring the calculator side of things (fair enough if they don't wanna implement it) is this just requiring an age value for the user of the operating system? Because if so, that seems a lot more sensible than the online crap where you need to give ID or something. I remember someone suggesting requiring an `X-User-Age` header, and having adults responsible for having their children's account setup with their age, w…

It’s the camels nose into the tent of regulating how an OS should behave. This is anathema for FOSS operating systems. It will cause complete madness if different jurisdictions start regulating operating systems in their own way and could honestly kill FOSS OSes.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#45

Post by iamnothere »

thayne wrote: post #34
tliltocatl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Linux it will be way more problematic because: - A lot of of corporate contributions comes from SV. - Linux Foundation is incorporated in CA. - Linus himself is CA's resident AFAIR. So there is zero chance of claiming no jurisdiction. The only hope is whoever is enforcing this batshit wouldn't go after what is essentially not an OS for the purpose of the bill, but rather an internal component (it would be like go…

It's more likely to be an issue for distributions like Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc. Although, if I'm understanding this correctly, I think all they would have to do to comply is have something during installation that asks for the age category, and write a file that is world readable, but only writable by root that contains that category that applications can read.

And then another state will pass a law mandating scanning of all local images, and another state will want automated scanning of text, and a different country will want a backdoor for law enforcement. We have to stop this here and now.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#46

Post by cyanydeez »

iamnothere wrote: post #43
mijoharas wrote: post #40

Ignoring the calculator side of things (fair enough if they don't wanna implement it) is this just requiring an age value for the user of the operating system? Because if so, that seems a lot more sensible than the online crap where you need to give ID or something. I remember someone suggesting requiring an `X-User-Age` header, and having adults responsible for having their children's account setup with their age, w…

It’s the camels nose into the tent of regulating how an OS should behave. This is anathema for FOSS operating systems. It will cause complete madness if different jurisdictions start regulating operating systems in their own way and could honestly kill FOSS OSes.

is it though? If you setup a PC for a 12 year old and prompts you something like [12~16] and thats reported to whatever, what exactly is the fear? You can scream slippery slope but these laws are just going to boil down to technical capability because enforcement isn't realistic.

There's real harms by large businesses such as Meta. Should we pretend those arms don't exist?

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#47

Post by iamnothere »

cyanydeez wrote: post #46
iamnothere wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the camels nose into the tent of regulating how an OS should behave. This is anathema for FOSS operating systems. It will cause complete madness if different jurisdictions start regulating operating systems in their own way and could honestly kill FOSS OSes.

is it though? If you setup a PC for a 12 year old and prompts you something like [12~16] and thats reported to whatever, what exactly is the fear? You can scream slippery slope but these laws are just going to boil down to technical capability because enforcement isn't realistic. There's real harms by large businesses such as Meta. Should we pretend those arms don't exist?

It is a slippery slope, and enforcement can quickly go from unrealistic to mandatory as we’re seeing in the UK.

> There's real harms by large businesses such as Meta. Should we pretend those arms don't exist?

Frankly I don’t care. Hands off my operating system. I will set up a guerilla sneakernet before I comply with something like this. Find another way to deal with it.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#48

Post by fc417fc802 »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #42
thayne wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more likely to be an issue for distributions like Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc. Although, if I'm understanding this correctly, I think all they would have to do to comply is have something during installation that asks for the age category, and write a file that is world readable, but only writable by root that contains that category that applications can read.

That is already way too much as far as I'm concerned. It's not that it's difficult, it's that it's arbitrary and a form of commanded speech or action. Smallness and easiness isn't an excuse. If you write a story, there must be a character in it somewhere that reminds kids not to smoke. That's all. It's very easy.

I actually don't mind mandating the market take reasonable actions. The EU mandating USB C was an excellent move that materially improved things.

However I think mandated actions should to the greatest extent possible be minimal, privacy preserving, and have an unambiguous goal that is clearly accomplished. This legislation fails in that regard because it mandates sharing personal information with third parties where it could have instead mandated queries that are strictly local to the device.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#49

Post by idle_zealot »

onionisafruit wrote: post #41
riskable wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The calculator firmware is a "software application" that's run by a user on a mobile device but it can't access an application store or download applications. For that you need a PC. So github.com is the violator, here, since it's a software application that may be run by a user on a computer and can download applications (loads of them!).

I've read through the CA law a couple of times and can't figure out what an application store is supposed to do. What part of the law would github violate?

The store is just supposed to be able to see the reported age bracket and use it to enforce its existing age restrictions. I'm not sure Github has any age restrictions though, so I think it's already in compliance by default.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#50

Post by tliltocatl »

cyanydeez wrote: post #46
iamnothere wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the camels nose into the tent of regulating how an OS should behave. This is anathema for FOSS operating systems. It will cause complete madness if different jurisdictions start regulating operating systems in their own way and could honestly kill FOSS OSes.

is it though? If you setup a PC for a 12 year old and prompts you something like [12~16] and thats reported to whatever, what exactly is the fear? You can scream slippery slope but these laws are just going to boil down to technical capability because enforcement isn't realistic. There's real harms by large businesses such as Meta. Should we pretend those arms don't exist?

The fear is that being below 18 doesn't mean you have no right to privacy. It's not implementation that's the problem. The whole idea is stupid.
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