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Japanese Death Poems

secretorum.life

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Re: Japanese Death Poems

#41

Post by tl2do »

darkerside wrote: post #21
tl2do wrote: post #15

As a native Japanese speaker, I'm happy to see our literature introduced to other countries. But I also feel conflicted. The original Japanese of the first poem is: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 The translation on the site: > I am not worthy > of this crimson carpet: > autumn maple leaves. This contains the translator's interpretation, and the sound and intonation are completely lost. I admire the translator's effort, but I want vis…

I feel like trying to replicate the meter in English is a silly constraint I would prefer to know how each line would be best interpreted if it weren't a haiku

I am not a literature lover. I found a modern language interpretation of the poem. Many interpretation are possible. But I feel this is relevant. I translated it to English.

============

おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 "Ohokenaki toko no nishiki ya chiri momiji" is interpreted as a haiku-like expression of introspection and refined aesthetic sensibility — one in which the speaker, surrounded by undeserved honor (ohokenaki) and luxurious living (toko no nishiki = sumptuous furnishings), gazes upon the fleeting falling autumn leaves and reflects on their own vanity and attachment to life.

Key points of interpretation: おほけなき Ohokenaki (身の程知らず /畏れ多い): Refers to a luxurious situation or standing that exceeds one's true worth or station — something almost presumptuous to possess. 床の錦 Toko no nishiki: Literally, a beautifully brocaded floor covering; a symbol of opulence. By extension, it evokes the sight of vivid autumn leaves carpeting the ground — the splendor of autumn (nishiki-aki) likened to a gorgeous spread of fabric. 散り紅葉 Chiri momiji : Falling, scattering autumn leaves — a classic symbol of impermanence and the Buddhist sense of transience (mujo). Overall picture: The speaker finds themselves in lavish surroundings that feel undeserved (ohokenaki), while the scattering leaves (mujo) adorn that world with a beauty that is at once gorgeous and hollow — a quiet contrast between humility and the ephemeral.

Even amid a life of splendor, the sight of leaves falling reveals a universal truth — that all things must eventually end. The poem captures a mood that is gently melancholic yet elevated: savoring that beauty from a place of quiet, dignified acceptance.

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#42

Post by HK-NC »

tl2do wrote: post #40
darkerside wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh ho ke na ki?

It is modern Japanese pronunciation. In classical literature, おほ is pronounced as a prolonged "o" (an elongated /oː/ sound).

Does that apply to longer vowels with the same(ish) sound, as in 因果応報?

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#43

Post by nekooooo »

tl2do wrote: post #39
buntsai wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which case the "crimson carpet" appears to be the loose invention of the translator. The original just says "brocade" or I guess, "quilt", implying some sort of silk bed cover?

Try an image search with 紅葉 落葉. The result will be the typical image a Japanese person imagines when hearing 散り紅葉. Then try the same search with "crimson carpet." From the standpoint of literary and artistic sensibility, the difference is not small.

my imagination when reading 散り紅葉 is an enka song lol

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#44

Post by tl2do »

HK-NC wrote: post #42
tl2do wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is modern Japanese pronunciation. In classical literature, おほ is pronounced as a prolonged "o" (an elongated /oː/ sound).

Does that apply to longer vowels with the same(ish) sound, as in 因果応報?

Yes, and no. 報 . this is contemporary word. it pronounces "ho-o", not "ho", not "o-o", not "o". Someone read "bo-o".

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#45

Post by lemonberry »

retrac wrote: post #26
lukan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know whether there is a specific japanese cultural explanation, but in general it often was. In winter when it was cold, those who lacked the strength to go on, layed down in the snow to rest forever.

Everything dies in winter. And then is reborn. Everyone who lives in a cold climate knows deep in their bones that cold and winter are death. Though if we're going to get stereotypical about national characteristics (a dangerous game) then what might be more specifically Japanese is the particularly heightened understanding of this cycle. Or at least, its expression in art, when in the west we might flinch away. I'm…

Not to mention the stillness and silence of new fallen snow. Probably the closest in life we come to the stillness and silence of death.

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#46

Post by mncharity »

tl2do wrote: post #16
pjc50 wrote: post #8

I only know a tiny corner of the language, but for things like this I really wish they'd cite the original Japanese. Precisely because the haiku is a constrained form, it is also an opportunity for ambiguity, double-meaning, and cases where a word may be translated with the same semantics but different connotations. By comparison, the gold standard for dealing with non-English poetry in English: https://www.perseus.t…

I am a native Japanese Original Kanji - hiragana works: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 How it sounds: Oh ke naki Yukano nishikiya chiri ko yo

>> I really wish they'd cite the original Japanese.

Given the Japanese above, translate.google can do text to speech[1], and goog AIMode[3] and bing/chat[2][4] can give multiple translations with notes.

But finding that Japanese, given only the TFA's description? I only saw AIMode manage that, not vanilla search. Perhaps using the author's Japanese wikipedia page[5], or perhaps here, or?

[1] https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&text=%E3%81%8A%E... [2] https://copilot.microsoft.com/shares/JcJSRgDDvT84M16x7RJDb [3] https://share.google/aimode/FNEXZGRPFPANlvNwd [4] https://copilot.microsoft.com/shares/wjaWnGHNpGs18X4M6CJV6 [5] https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%99%9A%E7%99%BD

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#47

Post by tl2do »

nekooooo wrote: post #43
tl2do wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try an image search with 紅葉 落葉. The result will be the typical image a Japanese person imagines when hearing 散り紅葉. Then try the same search with "crimson carpet." From the standpoint of literary and artistic sensibility, the difference is not small.

my imagination when reading 散り紅葉 is an enka song lol

You hit the point. Image from enka will be nearly identical to ones from poem.

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#49

Post by hirvi74 »

tl2do wrote: post #15

As a native Japanese speaker, I'm happy to see our literature introduced to other countries. But I also feel conflicted. The original Japanese of the first poem is: おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 The translation on the site: > I am not worthy > of this crimson carpet: > autumn maple leaves. This contains the translator's interpretation, and the sound and intonation are completely lost. I admire the translator's effort, but I want vis…

As a native speaker, would there be any way that you could translate this back one poem back into Japanese? I am curious what the original would be, and if the translation was truly accurate. It was favorite one from the article:

RAIZAN (来山) Died on the 3rd day of the 10th month, 1716 at the age of 63

Farewell, sire—

like snow, from water come

to water gone.

Re: Japanese Death Poems

#50

Post by darkerside »

tl2do wrote: post #41
darkerside wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like trying to replicate the meter in English is a silly constraint I would prefer to know how each line would be best interpreted if it weren't a haiku

I am not a literature lover. I found a modern language interpretation of the poem. Many interpretation are possible. But I feel this is relevant. I translated it to English. ============ おほけなき床の錦や散り紅葉 "Ohokenaki toko no nishiki ya chiri momiji" is interpreted as a haiku-like expression of introspection and refined aesthetic sensibility — one in which the speaker, surrounded by undeserved honor (ohokenaki) and luxurio…

Thank you for this. I'm just realizing that the pronoun "I" has no place in most haiku.
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