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15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

nicolasdickenmann.com

41–50 of 93 posts

Re: 15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

#41
post #8

I'm not sure why the article dismisses cost. Let's say X=10% of the GPU area (~75mm^2) is dedicated to FP32 SIMD units. Assume FP64 units are ~2-4x bigger. That would be 150-300mm^2, a huge amount of area that would increase the price per GPU. You may not agree with these assumptions. Feel free to change them. It is an overhead that is replicated per core. Why would gamers want to pay for any features they don't use?…

10% sounds implausibly high. Even on GPUs, most of area are various memories and interconnect.

Re: 15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

#42

To me it is crazy that NVIDIA somehow got away with telling owners of consumer grade hardware.that they cannot be used in datacenters.

My understanding is this was not enforceable in Europe, and maybe elsewhere

They did it by limiting the supply of cards. Even if you are ready to pay 4x of MSRP, you can't buy 100 of the card at once. Many consumers bought 1 GPU at 2-4x of MSRP.

Re: 15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

#43

A question that has been bugging me for a while is what will NVIDIA do with its HPC business? By HPC I mean clusters intended for non-AI related workloads. Are they going to cater to them separetely, or are they going to tell them to just emulate FP64?

Hopper had 60 TF FP64, Blackwell has 45 TF, and Rubin has 33 TF.

It is pretty clear that Nvidia is sunsetting FP64 support, and they are selling a story that no serious computational scientist I know believes, namely that you can use low precision operations to emulate higher precision.

See for example, https://www.theregister.com/2026/01/18/nvidia_fp64_emulation...

It seems the emulation approach is slower, has more errors, and doesn't apply to FP64 vector, only matrix operations.

Re: 15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

#44

To me it is crazy that NVIDIA somehow got away with telling owners of consumer grade hardware.that they cannot be used in datacenters.

My understanding is this was not enforceable in Europe, and maybe elsewhere

Code 43 was a worldwide thing before we found a workaround.

Re: 15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

#45
post #27

this article is so dumb. NVIDIA delivered what the market wanted - gamers dont need FP64, they dont waste silicon on it. now enterprise doesnt want FP64 anymore and they are reducing silicon for it too weird way to frame delivering exactly what the consumer wants as a big market segmentation fuck the user conspiracy

Your framing is what's backwards. NVIDIA artificially nerfed FP64 for a long time before they started making multiple specialized variants of their architectures. It's not a conspiracy theory; it's historical fact that they shipped the same die with drastically different levels of FP64 capability. In a very real way, consumers were paying for transistors they couldn't use, subsidizing the pro parts.

> subsidizing the pro parts.

You got this wrong way around. It's the high margin (pro) products subsidizing low margin (consumer) products.

Re: 15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

#46
While implementing double-precision by double-single may be a solution in some cases, the article fails to mention the overflow/underflow problem, which is critical in scientific/technical computing (a.k.a. HPC).

With the method from the article, the exponent range remains the same as in single precision, instead of being increased to that of double precision.

There are a lot of applications for which such an exponent range would cause far too frequent overflows and underflows. This could be avoided by introducing a lot of carefully-chosen scaling factors in all formulae, but this tedious work would remove the main advantage of floating-point arithmetic, i.e. the reason why computations are not done in fixed-point.

The general solution of this problem is to emulate double-precision with 3 numbers, 2 FP32 for the significand and a third number for the exponent, either a FP number or an integer number, depending on which format is more convenient for a given GPU.

This is possible, but it lowers considerably the achievable ratio between emulated FP64 throughput and hardware FP32 throughput, but the ratio is still better than the vendor-enforced 1:64 ratio.

Nevertheless, for now any small business or individual user can achieve a much better performance per dollar for FP64 throughput by buying Intel Battlemage GPUs, which have a 1:8 FP64/FP32 throughput ratio. This is much better than you can achieve by emulating FP64 on NVIDIA or AMD GPUs.

Intel B580 is a small GPU, so it has only a FP64 throughput about equal to a Ryzen 9 9900X and smaller than a Ryzen 9 9950X. However it provides that throughput at a much lower price. Thus if you start with a PC with a 9900X/9950X, you can double or almost double the FP64 throughput for a low additional price with an Intel GPU. Multiple GPUs will proportionally multiply the throughput.

The sad part is that with the current Intel CEO and with NVIDIA being a shareholder of Intel, it is unclear whether Intel will continue to compete in the GPU market, or they will abandon it, leaving us at the mercy of NVIDIA and AMD, which both refuse to provide products with good FP64 support to small businesses and individual users.

Re: 15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

#47
post #22

No mention of the Radeon VII from 2019 where for some unfathomable reason AMD forgot about the segmentation scam and put real FP64 into a gaming GPU. From this 2023 list, it's still faster at FP64 than any other consumer GPU by a wide margin (enterprise GPU's aren't in the list). Scroll all the way to the end. https://www.eatyourbytes.com/list-of-gpus-by-processing-powe...

Thats because Radeon VIIs were just AMD Instinct MI50 server gpus which didn't make the cut or were left over.

[deleted]

Re: 15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

#48
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even that is arguably not lucky, it just followed a non-obvious trajectory. Graphics uses a fair amount of linear algebra, so people with large scale physical modeling needs (among many) became interested. To an extent the deep learning craze kicked off because of developments in computation on GPUs enabled economical training.

Nvidia started their GPGPU adventure by acquiring a physics engine and porting it over to run on their GPUs. Supporting linear algebra operations was pretty much the goal from the start.

They were also full of lies when they have started their GPGPU adventure (like also today).

For a few years they have repeated continuously how GPGPU can provide about 100 times more speed than CPUs.

This has always been false. GPUs are really much faster, but their performance per watt has oscillated during most of the time around 3 times and sometimes up to 4 times greater in comparison with CPUs. This is impressive, but very far from the "100" factor originally claimed by NVIDIA.

Far more annoying than the exaggerated performance claims, is how the NVIDIA CEO was talking during the first GPGPU years about how their GPUs will cause a democratization of computing, giving access for everyone to high-throughput computing.

After a few years, these optimistic prophecies have stopped and NVIDIA has promptly removed FP64 support from their price-acceptable GPUs.

A few years later, AMD has followed the NVIDIA example.

Now, only Intel has made an attempt to revive GPUs as "GPGPUs", but there seems to be little conviction behind this attempt, as they do not even advertise the capabilities of their GPUs. If Intel will also abandon this market, than the "general-purpose" in GPGPUs will really become dead.

Re: 15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

#49

No mention of the Radeon VII from 2019 where for some unfathomable reason AMD forgot about the segmentation scam and put real FP64 into a gaming GPU. From this 2023 list, it's still faster at FP64 than any other consumer GPU by a wide margin (enterprise GPU's aren't in the list). Scroll all the way to the end. https://www.eatyourbytes.com/list-of-gpus-by-processing-powe...

They did a mild segmentation with that one, by reducing the throughput from 1:2 to 1:4 in the consumer variant, with the hope of forcing people to buy the "professional" version.

Even with the throughput reduction, Radeon VII had a performance somewhat better than the previous best FP64 product, AMD Hawaii, due to the large and fast memory. Most later consumer GPUs from NVIDIA and AMD have never approached again such a high memory interface throughput.

Radeon VII has remained for many years the champion of FP64 performance per dollar. I am still using one bought in 2019, 7 years ago.

Last year was the first time when a GPU with good FP64 performance per dollar has appeared again after Radeon VII: Intel Battlemage B580. Unfortunately it is a small GPU, but nonetheless the performance per dollar is excellent.

Re: 15 years of FP64 segmentation, and why the Blackwell Ultra breaks the pattern

#50
post #8

I'm not sure why the article dismisses cost. Let's say X=10% of the GPU area (~75mm^2) is dedicated to FP32 SIMD units. Assume FP64 units are ~2-4x bigger. That would be 150-300mm^2, a huge amount of area that would increase the price per GPU. You may not agree with these assumptions. Feel free to change them. It is an overhead that is replicated per core. Why would gamers want to pay for any features they don't use?…

A FP64 unit can share most of two FP32 units.

Only the multiplier is significantly bigger, up to 4 times. Some shifters may also be up to twice bigger. The adders are slightly bigger, due to bigger carry-look-ahead networks.

So you must count mainly the area occupied by multipliers and shifters, which is likely to be much less than 10%.

There is an area increase, but certainly not of 50% (300 m^2). Even an area increase of 10% (e.g. 60-70 mm^2 for the biggest GPUs seems incredibly large).

Reducing the FP64/FP32 throughput ratio from 1:2 to 1:4 or at most to 1:8 is guaranteed to make the excess area negligible. I am sure that the cheap Intel Battlemage with 1:8 does not suffer because of this.

Any further reductions, from 1:16 in old GPUs until 1:64 in recent GPUs cannot have any other explanation except the desire for market segmentation, which eliminates small businesses and individual users from the customers who can afford the huge prices of the GPUs with FP64 support.

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