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No Coding Before 10am

michaelxbloch.substack.com

41–50 of 58 posts

Re: No Coding Before 10am

#41

Anyone else find reading things like this slightly exhausting? I'm very much pro AI for coding there are clearly significant capabilities there but I'm still getting my head around how to best utilise it. Posts like these make it sound like ruthlessly optimizing your workflow letting no possible efficiency go every single day is the only way to work now. This has always been possible and generally not a good idea to…

Don't worry so much about spee. Some people obsess over it and don't realize they are running in the wrong direction.

Re: No Coding Before 10am

#42
post #19

"Agents should work overnight, on commutes, in meetings, asynchronously." If I read stuff like that, I wonder what the F they are doing. Agents work overnight? On what? Stuck in some loop, trying to figure out how to solve a bug by trial and error because the agent isn't capable of finding the right solution? Nothing good will come out of that. When the agent clearly isn't capable of solving an issue in a reasonable…

I can think of one reason for letting agents run overnight: running large models locally is incredibly slow or incredibly expensive. Even more so with he recent RAM price spikes thanks to the AI bubble. Running AI overnight can be a decent solution to solve complex prompts without being dependent on the cloud.

This approach breaks the moment you need to provide any form of feedback, of course.

Re: No Coding Before 10am

#43
post #19

"Agents should work overnight, on commutes, in meetings, asynchronously." If I read stuff like that, I wonder what the F they are doing. Agents work overnight? On what? Stuck in some loop, trying to figure out how to solve a bug by trial and error because the agent isn't capable of finding the right solution? Nothing good will come out of that. When the agent clearly isn't capable of solving an issue in a reasonable…

We don't have enough context here really. For simple changes, sure - 10min is plenty. But imagine you actually have a big spec ready, with graphical designs, cucumber tests, integration tests, sample data, very detailed requirements for multiple components, etc. If the tests are well integrated and the harness is solid, I don't see a reason not to let it go for a couple hours or more. At some point you just can't implement things using the agent in a few simple iterations. If it can succeed on a longer timeline without interruption, that may be actually a sign of good upfront design.

To be clear, this is not a hypothetical situation. I wrote long specs like that and had large chunks of services successfully implemented up to around 2h real-time. And that was limited by the complexity of what I needed, not by what the agent could handle.

Re: No Coding Before 10am

#44
post #19

"Agents should work overnight, on commutes, in meetings, asynchronously." If I read stuff like that, I wonder what the F they are doing. Agents work overnight? On what? Stuck in some loop, trying to figure out how to solve a bug by trial and error because the agent isn't capable of finding the right solution? Nothing good will come out of that. When the agent clearly isn't capable of solving an issue in a reasonable…

Everyone here (including me) agrees on how dumb this idea is, yet I know C level people who would love it. I wonder how our comments will age in a few years. Edit: to add > Review the output, not the code. Don't read every line an agent writes This can't be a serious project. It must be a greenfield startup that's just starting.

> I wonder how our comments will age in a few years.

I don't think there will be a future where agents need to work on a limited piece of code for hours. Either they are smart enough to do it in a limited amount of time, or someone smarter needs to get involved.

> This can't be a serious project. It must be a greenfield startup that's just starting.

I rarely review UI code. Doesn't mean that I don't need to step in from time to time, but generally, I don't care enough about the UI code to review it line-by-line.

Re: No Coding Before 10am

#45

It blows my mind how these posts seem like everyone is victim of a collective amnesia. Literally every single point in the article was good engineering practice way before AI. So it's either amnesia or simple ignorance. In particular, "No coding before 10am" is worded a bit awkward, as it simply means "think before you write code", which... Does it need an article for saying it?

> Does it need an article for saying it?

Not for nothing but The Art of War includes really insightful quotes like "If you do not feed your soldiers, they will die."

Re: No Coding Before 10am

#46
post #14

Coding tools are less stable as the code grows for several reasons. Some recent techniques claim to be solving this problem but none reached a release yet. Working with what we have now, this is a recipe for disaster. Agents often lies about the outputs. The shorter the context space they have to manage while the bigger the data already in context makes it prone to lie and deceive. It works ok for small changes on to…

I'm writing my side project as if I can afford only a 70B model in 2028, even if I have VC-subsidised unlimited GLM-5 now. I'm trimming away most of the generated code and generating more tests.

Would prefer if 2028 models are concise and generates perfect refactors.

Re: No Coding Before 10am

#47

Anyone else find reading things like this slightly exhausting? I'm very much pro AI for coding there are clearly significant capabilities there but I'm still getting my head around how to best utilise it. Posts like these make it sound like ruthlessly optimizing your workflow letting no possible efficiency go every single day is the only way to work now. This has always been possible and generally not a good idea to…

Yeah, AI generated diagrams can be pretty hit or miss. The lack of good quality examples in training data and minimal documentation for these tools can make it difficult for models to even get basic syntax correct for more complex diagrams.

I’ve had a lot of success dogfooding my own product, the Mermaid Studio plugin for JetBrains IDEs (https://mermaidstudio.dev).

It combines the deep semantic code intelligence of an IDE with a suite of integrated MCP tools that your preferred agent can plug into for static analysis, up to date syntax, etc.

I basically tell Claude Code to run the generated diagram through the analysis tool, fix issues it detects and repeat until fixed. Then generate a png or svg for a visual inspection before finalizing the diagram.

Now all of my planning and architecture docs are filled with illustrative flowcharts, sequence diagrams, and occasionally block diagrams for workshopping proposed UI layouts

Re: No Coding Before 10am

#48
post #19

"Agents should work overnight, on commutes, in meetings, asynchronously." If I read stuff like that, I wonder what the F they are doing. Agents work overnight? On what? Stuck in some loop, trying to figure out how to solve a bug by trial and error because the agent isn't capable of finding the right solution? Nothing good will come out of that. When the agent clearly isn't capable of solving an issue in a reasonable…

10 minute is not the limit for current models. I can have them work for hours on a problem. Humans are not the only thing initiating prompts either. Exceptions and crashes coming in from production trigger agentic workflows to work on fixes. These can happen autonomously over night, 24/7.

> 10 minute is not the limit for current models. I can have them work for hours on a problem.

Admittedly, I have never tried to run it that long. If 10 minutes are not enough, I check what it is doing and tell it to do what it needs to do differently, or what to look at, or offer to run it with debug logs. Recently, I have also had a case where Opus was working on an issue forever, fixing one issue and thereby introducing another, fix that, only for the original issue to disappear. Then I tried out Codex, and it fixed it at first sight. So changing models can certainly help.

But do you really get a good solution after running it for hours? To me, that sounds like it doesn't understand the issue completely.

Re: No Coding Before 10am

#49
post #16

> Don’t spec the process, spec the outcome. For this, which summarises vibe coding and hence the rest of the article, the models aren't good enough yet for novel applications. With current models and assuming your engineers are of a reasonable level of experience, for now it seems to result in either greatly reduced velocity and higher costs, or worse outcomes. One course correction in terms of planned process, becau…

You can expand it beyond novel applications. The models aren't good enough for autonomous coding without a human in the loop period.

They can one shot basic changes and refactors, or even many full prototypes, but for pretty much everything else they're going to start making mistakes at some point. Usually very quickly. It's just where the technology is right now.

The thing that frustrates me is that this is really easy to demonstrate. Articles like this are essentially hallucinations that, at least many, people mystifyingly take seriously.

I assume the reason they get any traction is that a lot of people don't have enough experience with LLM agents yet to be confident that their personal experience generalizes. So they think maybe there are magical context tricks to get the current generation of agents to not make the kinds of mistakes they're seeing.

There aren't. It doesn't matter if it's Opus 4.6 in Claude Code or Codex 5.3 xhigh, they still hallucinate, fail to comprehend context and otherwise drift.

Anyone who can read code can fire up an instance and see this for themselves. Or you can prove it for free by looking at the code of any app that the author says was vibecoded without human review. You won't have to look very hard.

Agents can accomplish impressive things but also, often enough, they make incomprehensibly bad decisions or make things up. It's baked into the technology. We might figure out how to solve that problem eventually, but we haven't yet.

You can iterate, add more context to AGENTS.md or CLAUDE.md, add skills, setup hooks, and no matter how many times you do it the agents will still make mistakes. You can make specialized code review agents and run them in parallel, you can have competing models do audits, you can do dozens of passes and spend all the tokens you want, if it's a non trivial amount of code, doing non trivial things, and there's no human in the loop, there will still be critical mistakes.

No one has demonstrated different behavior, articles and posts claiming otherwise never attempt to prove that what they claim is actually possible. Because it isn't.

Just to be clear, I think coding agents are incredibly useful tools and I use them extensively. But you can't currently use them to write production code without a human in the loop. If you're not reading and understanding the code, you're going to be shipping vulnerabilities and tech debt.

Articles like this are just hype. But as long as they keep making front pages they'll keep distorting the conversation. And it's an otherwise interesting conversation! We're living through an unprecented paradigm shift, the field of possibilities is vast and there's a lot to figure out. The idea of autonomous coding agents is just a distraction from that, at least for now.

Re: No Coding Before 10am

#50
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10 minute is not the limit for current models. I can have them work for hours on a problem. Humans are not the only thing initiating prompts either. Exceptions and crashes coming in from production trigger agentic workflows to work on fixes. These can happen autonomously over night, 24/7.

> 10 minute is not the limit for current models. I can have them work for hours on a problem. Admittedly, I have never tried to run it that long. If 10 minutes are not enough, I check what it is doing and tell it to do what it needs to do differently, or what to look at, or offer to run it with debug logs. Recently, I have also had a case where Opus was working on an issue forever, fixing one issue and thereby introd…

Sometimes it doesn't work or it will give up early, but considering these run when I'm not working it is not a big deal. When it does work I would say that it has figured out that hard part of the solution. I may have to do another prompt to clean it up a bit, but it got the hard work out of the way.

>or offer to run it with debug logs.

Enabling it to add its own debug logs and use a debugger can allow it to do these loops itself and understand where it's going wrong with its current approach.

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