Live data from Hacker News

Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

blog.kagi.com

41–50 of 266 posts

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#41
post #24

> Building a comparable one from scratch is like building a parallel national railroad.. Not too be pedantic here but I do have a noob question or two here: 1. One is building the index, which is a lot harder without a google offering its own API to boot. If other tech companies really wanted to break this monopoly, why can't they just do it — like they did with LLM training for base models with the infamous "pile" d…

I don’t think it’s comparable to today’s AI race.

Google has a monopoly, an entrenched customer base, and stable revenue from a proven business model. Anyone trying to compete would have to pour massive money into infrastructure and then fight Google for users. In that game, Google already won.

The current AI landscape is different. Multiple players are competing in an emerging field with an uncertain business model. We’re still in the phase of building better products, where companies started from more similar footing and aren’t primarily battling for customers yet. In that context, investing heavily in the core technology can still make financial sense. A better comparison might be the early days of car makers, or the web browser wars before the market settled.

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#42
post #8

Does anyone else use the phrase "I'm going to google XYZ" while referring to actually searching it up on Kagi, DDG, or another search engine?

Yeah, I don't feel the need to have conversations go on a tangent about explaining what Kagi is

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#43
One interesting point was the original PageRank algorithm greatly benefited from the fact that we kinda only had "text matching" search before Google (my memory was AltaVista at the time).

Because text matching was so difficult to search with, whenever you went to a site, it would often have a "web of trust" at the bottom where an actual human being had curated a list of other sites that you might like if you liked this site.

So you would often search with keywords (often literals), then find the first site, then recursively explore the web of trust links to find the best site.

My suspicion has always been that Google (PageRank) benefited greatly from the human curated "web of trust" at the bottom of pages. But once Google came out, search was much better, and so human beings stopped creating "web of trust" type things on their site.

I am making the point that Google effectively benefited from the large amount of human labor put into connecting sites via WOT, while simultaneously (inadvertently) destroying the benefit of curating a WOT. This means that by succeeding at what they did, they made it much more difficult for a Google#2 to come around and run the exact same game plan with even the exact same algorithm.

tldr; Google harvested the links that were originally curated by human labor, the incentive to create those links are gone now, so the only remaining "links" between things are now in the Google Index.

Addendum: I asked claude to help me think of a metaphor, and I really liked this one as it is so similar.

``` "The railroad and the wagon trails"

Before railroads, collective human use created and maintained wagon trails through difficult terrain. The railroad company could survey these trails to find optimal routes. Once the railroad exists, the wagon trails fall into disuse and the pathfinding knowledge atrophies. A second railroad can't follow trails that are now overgrown. ```

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#44

Kagi's "waiting for dawn" is just waiting for Google to legitimize their reseller business Meanwhile, users pay a premium to pretend they're not using Google Fascinating delusion

> Meanwhile, users pay a premium to pretend they're not using Google

My searches can’t be tied to me by Google for their ad targeting: this is worth paying a premium for, and I am glad Kagi are providing this service.

You seem to have a very limited understanding of the value Kagi provides.

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#45
post #24

> Building a comparable one from scratch is like building a parallel national railroad.. Not too be pedantic here but I do have a noob question or two here: 1. One is building the index, which is a lot harder without a google offering its own API to boot. If other tech companies really wanted to break this monopoly, why can't they just do it — like they did with LLM training for base models with the infamous "pile" d…

> If other tech companies really wanted to break this monopoly, why can't they just do it

Google is a verb, nobody can compete with that level of mindshare.

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#47

If google is serving 90% traffic & others are unable to enter - Doesn't that mean google is doing something right for the customer and others are unable to outcompete it? Isn't this how life works?

Is the user's choice to use google a meaningful one when they're effectively the only game in town?

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#48
post #24

> Building a comparable one from scratch is like building a parallel national railroad.. Not too be pedantic here but I do have a noob question or two here: 1. One is building the index, which is a lot harder without a google offering its own API to boot. If other tech companies really wanted to break this monopoly, why can't they just do it — like they did with LLM training for base models with the infamous "pile" d…

> If other tech companies really wanted to break this monopoly, why can't they just do it Google is a verb, nobody can compete with that level of mindshare.

Xerox is a verb, but most copy machines I see are made by their competition

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#49
post #24

> Building a comparable one from scratch is like building a parallel national railroad.. Not too be pedantic here but I do have a noob question or two here: 1. One is building the index, which is a lot harder without a google offering its own API to boot. If other tech companies really wanted to break this monopoly, why can't they just do it — like they did with LLM training for base models with the infamous "pile" d…

> If other tech companies really wanted to break this monopoly, why can't they just do it Google is a verb, nobody can compete with that level of mindshare.

Kleenex isn't the only brand of tissues sold in stores.

Re: Waiting for dawn in search: Search index, Google rulings and impact on Kagi

#50
post #24

> Building a comparable one from scratch is like building a parallel national railroad.. Not too be pedantic here but I do have a noob question or two here: 1. One is building the index, which is a lot harder without a google offering its own API to boot. If other tech companies really wanted to break this monopoly, why can't they just do it — like they did with LLM training for base models with the infamous "pile" d…

> If other tech companies really wanted to break this monopoly, why can't they just do it Google is a verb, nobody can compete with that level of mindshare.

So were AOL, and Skype
Post reply on HN