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EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

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Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#41

Post by iagooar »

oytis wrote: post #31
iagooar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The multiple reasons being exactly? In my opinion it is a net negative for all countries in Europe, but one.

Most importantly, Europe needs more trading partners after having lost Russia and now losing the United States. Second, I am happy about German (I suspect it's similar in other EU countries) farmers largely supporting the far-right getting a taste of a world without protectionism and regulations. Finally, I hope for lower grocery prices, not only for myself, but also because it makes the whole social situation less e…

Fair trade yes. Unfair trade no. And Mercosur is COMPLETELY unfair to European farmers. It imposes higher standards - and thus costs - on European farmers, while allowing South American farmers to produce with lower quality and adding forbidden substances to grow crops faster - and cheaper.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#42

Post by AdrianB1 »

bildung wrote: post #30
AdrianB1 wrote: post #19

There is some valid criticism raised by farmers in my country (Romania) related to use of pesticides and other substances that are forbidden in EU, but permitted in Mercosur and products can be imported even with the forbidden substances in it. That sounds pretty bad, consumer protection is the only part that I still like about modern EU.

But is that really true, i.e. were you able to find actual facts supporting this? I'm asking because in Germany there are similar talking points driven by the farmer's associations (actually just the big agro corps, actual small-scale farmers don't have much of a voice in these) and everytime I tried to dig into a particular topic, it didn't seem to be supported by actual facts.

What facts are you looking for, real products imported on this agreement and analyzed in a lab? Obviously not, the agreement was just signed. But, I read about examples of substances allowed in the Mercosur countries and forbidden in EU. https://www.collectifstoptafta.org/IMG/pdf/mercosur_et_pesti... , https://euobserver.com/climate/151818

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#43

Post by oulipo2 »

dtech wrote: post #16
iagooar wrote: post #12

This is a bad deal for many European countries that still have a strong farming industry, and for Europeans in general too. Once again, Germany has pushed through its interests at the expense of other European nations like Poland. This time even France was against it. What is Germany going to get? A new market for their decaying automobile industry. What is the rest of Europe going to get? Cheap, low quality food shi…

This is an incredibly mid take. This is a boon for any European manufacturing and tech company. Not "just" German car manufacturers but especially machining and pharmaceutical companies. Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU, and has an outsized political capital for their importance based on historical momentum. This is also primarily bad for the beef industry, which is produced in the EU using very int…

In a time where:

- there are climate change issues

- there are many issues with pollution getting in the food chain

- we need to be more autonomous, and less depending on other nations, because of idiots like Trump

I think on the contrary we should defend our local agriculture, when it is respectful of nature

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#44

Post by toyg »

dtech wrote: post #23
realusername wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump used this card already, he already imposed tariffs once so nobody cares about that threat anymore. That's the thing with tariffs, they only work once.

You can always impose additional tariffs until it is ludicrous levels. Eg 100% or more like China has reached a few times before it was walked back.

But there is a cap: you can only bring down trade with a country to zero. This might inflict some pain in the immediate, but eventually trade is simply directed elsewhere - and you lose any leverage you have.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#45

Post by 3ple_alpha »

Removing tariffs on beef specifically is a serious mistake, there's no need to incentivise any more production of that.

Other agricultural imports, like soy and coffee beans, are a huge boon to the EU on the other hand. If this results in cheaper coffee, everyone in my country, for one, will be ecstatic.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#46

Post by oulipo2 »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #33
iagooar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU As it should be if we don't want to wake up one fine day in the middle of a global war with no food supply because of a naval blockade and have our children starve to death.

This kind of incentive should not block trade. If we need sufficient production capacity for security reasons, it’s ok to subsidize it, but the product should still compete on the market and surplus can always be donated to UN. There’s enough starving people on this planet.

Right now the current system is totally inefficient, with a lot of food waste, and a lot of ruined landscapes and soil because of pollution and intrants

We need on the contrary to produce less globally, but more organically, and to reduce waste and produce locally

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#47

Post by N19PEDL2 »

iagooar wrote: post #21
dtech wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an incredibly mid take. This is a boon for any European manufacturing and tech company. Not "just" German car manufacturers but especially machining and pharmaceutical companies. Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU, and has an outsized political capital for their importance based on historical momentum. This is also primarily bad for the beef industry, which is produced in the EU using very int…

> Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU As it should be if we don't want to wake up one fine day in the middle of a global war with no food supply because of a naval blockade and have our children starve to death.

Who could possibly impose a naval blockade on the EU? Not even the US Navy would be able to do so.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#48

Post by trollbridge »

3ple_alpha wrote: post #45

Removing tariffs on beef specifically is a serious mistake, there's no need to incentivise any more production of that. Other agricultural imports, like soy and coffee beans, are a huge boon to the EU on the other hand. If this results in cheaper coffee, everyone in my country, for one, will be ecstatic.

What’s wrong with pasture raised beef like they raise in Argentina?

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#49

Post by bildung »

iagooar wrote: post #34
raverbashing wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Farmers like to complain and always get new privileges with every protest I for once are happy they are getting a reality check for once

I hope you won't get a reality check if one day there is a famine in Europe caused by outsourcing the entire farming to other continents. The very first thing any enemy force would do is a naval blockade, the rest is patience and lots of deaths.

Farming already is heavily subsidized in every EU country. The whole sector only exists as is precisely because of the fears you point out. And that is perfectly fine, because statistically speaking it already is a rounding error both in share of employment and share of GDP (1.2% of EU GDP), only kept alive for the exact purpose you talk about.

So even if these lobby talking points would be true, and everything had to be 100% subsidized, that wouldn't be a problem.

Re: EU and Mercosur countries sign landmark free trade deal

#50

Post by Tade0 »

iagooar wrote: post #21
dtech wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an incredibly mid take. This is a boon for any European manufacturing and tech company. Not "just" German car manufacturers but especially machining and pharmaceutical companies. Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU, and has an outsized political capital for their importance based on historical momentum. This is also primarily bad for the beef industry, which is produced in the EU using very int…

> Farming is already incredibly subsidized in the EU As it should be if we don't want to wake up one fine day in the middle of a global war with no food supply because of a naval blockade and have our children starve to death.

That would happen anyway as the EU is a net importer of fertilizer.

Fortunately there's around 800kg per capita worth of food storage in the EU, so should a war break out we're not all immediately dead - just vegetarian after a period of slaughtering all the livestock that can't be fed.

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