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No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

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Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#41

Post by OhMeadhbh »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #28
burnto wrote: post #18

> Motivation is a hired trait. The only place where managers motivate people is in management books Initial motivation is the hired trait. It’s very easy to demotivate people. The trick is to not do that.

Yep people have all sorts of sources of motivations. One of the key ones is a sense of ownership. Many people join startups instead of BigCorp because they want voice and influence that they don't get in a larger company. I've seen so many founders, managers, leaders, etc kill that by not recognizing this fundamental fact. Of course there's also the problem that you can find and hire people who are motivated people b…

thank you. can i hire you to run one of my teams? i've been trying to explain this to my managers for half a decade.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#42

Post by hahahahhaah »

burnto wrote: post #18

> Motivation is a hired trait. The only place where managers motivate people is in management books Initial motivation is the hired trait. It’s very easy to demotivate people. The trick is to not do that.

Thw word hired is doing a lot of work.

Is motivation intrinsic to a person.

Or is it a person plus situation.

Ot is it person, situation and reason (reason given in interview)

I have been most motivated when there was an aha in the interview process. Or a "cooll!" feeling. For me usually about the end product over the tech stack. I like to work on things I like to use myself.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#43

Post by bob001 »

Herring wrote: post #35
pyrale wrote: post #27

> I know several top 1% engineers in the Valley who disengage from recruiting processes when 996 or something similar is mentioned. A few years back, on this board, 996 was something people made fun of when it was reported that some Chinese companies did it [1]. And now, the strongest claim this blog can make is that some engineers in the US would disengage from recruiting? That the issue with working on saturdays is…

It’s better to look at what didn’t happen: unionization. Americans often remind me of Steve Jobs trying to cure cancer using diets & acupuncture. You know what the solutions are, you just don’t like them.

Until recently American engineers made a lot of money at comparatively cushy jobs. A decent engineer in the US could make 5x their equivalent in most European nations. Staff+ engineers at FAANG could make 5x that. People in a good position tend to not like rocking the boat.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#44

Post by joe_mamba »

systemtest wrote: post #10

When I read about 996-style culture I am happy to be European. That would not work here. 40 hours per week max and most engineers prefer to not work more than 32 hours a week. So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week.

>I currently work 4 hours a week.

Which employers hand out 4h contracts?

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#45

Post by hahahahhaah »

systemtest wrote: post #10

When I read about 996-style culture I am happy to be European. That would not work here. 40 hours per week max and most engineers prefer to not work more than 32 hours a week. So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week.

4 is very low. Kind of an outlier.

I guess either you have wealth, very low costs or a great hourly rate, or you are the one person who got that Tim Ferriss book to work.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#46

Post by loire280 »

burnto wrote: post #18

> Motivation is a hired trait. The only place where managers motivate people is in management books Initial motivation is the hired trait. It’s very easy to demotivate people. The trick is to not do that.

I may not be using the same definition of "motivation" as the author, but understanding what motivates your people, putting the right mix of people together to work on the right problems, and knowing how and when to apply pressure to get people to do their best work are absolutely something managers can do to motivate their teams.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#47

Post by OhMeadhbh »

1121redblackgo wrote: post #25
dcastm wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why fewer and fewer companies are hiring in Europe.

And why people are jumping out of buildings, actually and metaphorically, in 996 cultures.

i think Amazon only had one person jump out of a building last year. it's not as common as you might think.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#48

Post by amarant »

dcastm wrote: post #19
systemtest wrote: post #10

When I read about 996-style culture I am happy to be European. That would not work here. 40 hours per week max and most engineers prefer to not work more than 32 hours a week. So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week.

Which is why fewer and fewer companies are hiring in Europe.

Are they? Do you have a source for that? My impression is that it's easier to find engineering work in Stockholm than in silicon valley atm, but I haven't measured objectively.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#49

Post by hahahahhaah »

pyrale wrote: post #32
alephnerd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to work at an early stage startup - in fact most people don't. But some people do wish to participate in an early stage startup, and plenty do in Europe as well. > So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week. And this is why when I was a PM, we shut down our Amsterdam office and shifted it to Praha, Bucharest, and Warsaw. You won't find as many people who will complain about a…

> But some people do wish to participate in an early stage startup You don't need to push yourself into burnout as an employee in order to participate in an early stage startup. > earning €80k 80k€ gross is not a lot for a decent SWE in western europe. The reason people complain in Amsterdam is not the hours, it's that your comp is shit.

140k AUD. In major cities in Australia that is a reasonable mid level salary. I imagine that is good in Prague.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#50

Post by everlier »

systemtest wrote: post #10

When I read about 996-style culture I am happy to be European. That would not work here. 40 hours per week max and most engineers prefer to not work more than 32 hours a week. So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week.

I'm in EU and I can't agree this describes most engineers.

Overwork culture is also present here and exploited by a lot of companies.

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