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"They Saw a Protest": Cognitive Illiberalism and the Speech-Conduct Distinction [pdf] (2012)

stanfordlawreview.org

41–50 of 83 posts

Re: "They Saw a Protest": Cognitive Illiberalism and the Speech-Conduct Distinction [pdf] (2012)

#41
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's also not hard to find people who think fluoride in the water is turning the frogs gay. doesn't make it true

I'm not claiming that those people are right, only that the "videos ... speak for themselves" claim isn't true. If people can watch the same video and come to entirely different conclusions, how can you say it "... speak for themselves"? If so, can we also say ambiguous studies on whether ivemectin was effective against covid "speak for themselves"? Or does it just become a no true scotsman where you can say whatever…

> if people can watch the same video and come to entirely different conclusions, how can you say it "... speak for themselves"?

because a disappointingly large fraction of the public is unable to acknowledge facts of reality. the video is speaking, but some people just ain't listening.

Re: "They Saw a Protest": Cognitive Illiberalism and the Speech-Conduct Distinction [pdf] (2012)

#42

[flagged]

I don't think so, given the drastically different takes on something that seemed quite obvious to me after rewatching the video many times. It was quite clear that many takes, on both sides, seemed to bypass the events in the video and jump straight to whatever ideologically-driven interpretation they needed to be true.

I don't think it takes much ideological bias to understand that was an unprovoked murder of a citizen

Re: "They Saw a Protest": Cognitive Illiberalism and the Speech-Conduct Distinction [pdf] (2012)

#44
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also why the era of pervasive videotaping of everything hasn’t ended disputes over basic facts of what happened.

Yes, and now we have billionaires arguing in public about such basic facts: X link: https://x.com/paulg/status/2008989862725341658 Screenshot: https://old.reddit.com/r/GenZ/comments/1q6zgq5/theres_someth...

The in-progress community notes are a shit show too.

I saw the video and saw someone trying to avoid the ICE agent, but also being EXTREMELY reckless about driving a huge SUV close to people with guns. Everyone is at fault here imo.

Re: "They Saw a Protest": Cognitive Illiberalism and the Speech-Conduct Distinction [pdf] (2012)

#45

[flagged]

Except that if you poll any MAGA person, including basically anyone running the federal government right now, it seems that they see a video of a protester trying to run down an officer.

MAGAs struggle with reality.

Re: "They Saw a Protest": Cognitive Illiberalism and the Speech-Conduct Distinction [pdf] (2012)

#47
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this why the same protest videos can be recycled multiple times for multiple different purposes

This is also why the era of pervasive videotaping of everything hasn’t ended disputes over basic facts of what happened.

I'm not sure how this intersects with the point of the paper, but part of the problem with the Renee Good case (or things like it) in my opinion is that the focus too often is on the actual events at a particular moment, and not what is surrounding it.

I can see some argument, for example, that goes something like "Jonathan Ross was afraid he was going to get hit by a car and misperceived her as trying to ram him when was trying to turn right, so he fired in self-defense." Then there's a subsequent argument about whether it was reasonable for him to think that she was going to ram him, etc.

However, what's missing from this is a broader discussion about whether or not an officer should be putting himself in that position near a car at all, when it might be anticipated that there might be misperceptions about what is happening. Whether the officer is competent enough to perceive the difference between someone turning their car versus trying to ram them (especially at that speed). Whether they should have let medical personnel help afterward.

When you frame a discussion about perceptions of facts at a particular moment, you kind of get into a frameset of thinking that everything was passively happening, and start overlooking how a particular moment came to be and whether or not the real problems are a set of things that happened minutes, days, or weeks beforehand, and what happened in the time period afterward. E.g., instead of asking "did Jonathan Ross murder Renee Good?" you can ask "were Jonathan Ross and his colleagues competent enough to avoid a situation where they might feel justified in shooting someone innocent?"

I guess I feel like this "cultural perception" question often sidesteps more important questions about whether or not what came to be could have been avoided. This gets more deeply into the underlying attitudes or assumptions driving the perceptions one way or another and lets them be addressed more directly.

Re: "They Saw a Protest": Cognitive Illiberalism and the Speech-Conduct Distinction [pdf] (2012)

#48
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and now we have billionaires arguing in public about such basic facts: X link: https://x.com/paulg/status/2008989862725341658 Screenshot: https://old.reddit.com/r/GenZ/comments/1q6zgq5/theres_someth...

The in-progress community notes are a shit show too. I saw the video and saw someone trying to avoid the ICE agent, but also being EXTREMELY reckless about driving a huge SUV close to people with guns. Everyone is at fault here imo.

For reference since I'm going to assume good faith here, I recommend watching the full videos [1] from multiple angles since there's been multiple edits, cuts and potential changes done if you've seen it elsewhere or on social media. These are the unedited and unmodified videos.

[1] https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Gb_IkGVK7WvsTAXfMvQU...

Re: "They Saw a Protest": Cognitive Illiberalism and the Speech-Conduct Distinction [pdf] (2012)

#50
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also why the era of pervasive videotaping of everything hasn’t ended disputes over basic facts of what happened.

Yes, and now we have billionaires arguing in public about such basic facts: X link: https://x.com/paulg/status/2008989862725341658 Screenshot: https://old.reddit.com/r/GenZ/comments/1q6zgq5/theres_someth...

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