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Python numbers every programmer should know

mkennedy.codes

41–50 of 191 posts

Re: Python numbers every programmer should know

#41
post #5

Counterintuitively: program in python only if you can get away without knowing these numbers. When this starts to matter, python stops being the right tool for the job.

Why? I've build some massive analytic data flows in Python with turbodbc + pandas which are basically C++ fast. It uses more memory which supports your point, but on the flip-side we're talking $5-10 extra cost a year. It could frankly be $20k a year and still be cheaper than staffing more people like me to maintain these things, rather than having a couple of us and then letting the BI people use the tools we provide for them. Similarily when we do embeded work, micro-python is just so much easier to deal with for our engineering staff.

The interoperability between C and Python makes it great, and you need to know these numbers on Python to know when to actually build something in C. With Zig getting really great interoperability, things are looking better than ever.

Not that you're wrong as such. I wouldn't use Python to run an airplane, but I really don't see why you wouldn't care about the resources just because you're working with an interpreted or GC language.

Re: Python numbers every programmer should know

#42

Every Python programmer should be thinking about far more important things than low level performance minutiae. Great reference but practically irrelevant except in rare cases where optimization is warranted. If your workload grows to the point where this stuff actually matters, great! Until then it’s a distraction.

Having general knowledge about the tools you're working with is not a distraction, it's an intellectual enrichment in any case, and can be a valuable asset in specific cases.

Knowing that an empty string is 41 bytes or how many ns it takes to do arithmetic operations is not general knowledge.

Re: Python numbers every programmer should know

#43
post #5

Counterintuitively: program in python only if you can get away without knowing these numbers. When this starts to matter, python stops being the right tool for the job.

Why? I've build some massive analytic data flows in Python with turbodbc + pandas which are basically C++ fast. It uses more memory which supports your point, but on the flip-side we're talking $5-10 extra cost a year. It could frankly be $20k a year and still be cheaper than staffing more people like me to maintain these things, rather than having a couple of us and then letting the BI people use the tools we provid…

> you need to know these numbers on Python to know when to actually build something in C

People usually approach this the other way, use something like pandas or numpy from the beginning if it solves your problem. Do not write matrix multiplications or joins in python at all.

If there is no library that solves your problem, it's a great indication that you should avoid python. Unless you are willing to spend 5 man-years writing a C or C++ library with good python interop.

Re: Python numbers every programmer should know

#44

That's a long list of numbers that seem oddly specific. Apart from learning that f-strings are way faster than the alternatives, and certain other comparisons, I'm not sure what I would use this for day-to-day. After skimming over all of them, it seems like most "simple" operations take on the order of 20ns. I will leave with that rule of thumb in mind.

That number isn't very useful either, it really depends on the hardware. Most virtualized server CPUs where e.g. Django will run on in the end are nowhere near the author's M4 Pro. Last time I benchmarked a VPS it was about the performance of an Ivy Bridge generation laptop.

> Last time I benchmarked a VPS it was about the performance of an Ivy Bridge generation laptop.

I have a number of Intel N95 systems around the house for various things. I've found them to be a pretty accurate analog for small instances VPSes. The N95 are Intel E-cores which are effectively Sandy Bridge/Ivy Bridge cores.

Stuff can fly on my MacBook but than drag on a small VPS instance but validating against an N95 (I already have) is helpful. YMMV.

Re: Python numbers every programmer should know

#46

A meta-note on the title since it looks like it’s confusing a lot of commenters: The title is a play on Jeff Dean’s famous “Latency Numbers Every Programmer Should Know” from 2012. It isn’t meant to be interpreted literally. There’s a common theme in CS papers and writing to write titles that play upon themes from past papers. Another common example is the “_____ considered harmful” titles.

Good callout on the paper reference, but this author gives gives every indication that he’s dead serious in the first paragraph. I don’t think commenters are confused.

Re: Python numbers every programmer should know

#47

Author here. Thanks for the feedback everyone. I appreciate your posting it @woodenchair and @aurornis for pointing out the intent of the article. The idea of the article is NOT to suggest you should shave 0.5ns off by choosing some dramatically different algorithm or that you really need to optimize the heck out of everything. In fact, I think a lot of what the numbers show is that over thinking the optimizations of…

Then you should have written that. Instead you have given more fodder for the premature optimization crowd.

Re: Python numbers every programmer should know

#48
A lot of people here are commenting that if you have to care about specific latency numbers in Python you should just use another language.

I disagree. A lot of important and large codebases were grown and maintained in Python (Instagram, Dropbox, OpenAI) and it's damn useful to know how to reason your way out of a Python performance problem when you inevitably hit one without dropping out into another language, which is going to be far more complex.

Python is a very useful tool, and knowing these numbers just makes you better at using the tool. The author is a Python Software Foundation Fellow. They're great at using the tool.

In the common case, a performance problem in Python is not the result of hitting the limit of the language but the result of sloppy un-performant code, for example unnecessarily calling a function O(10_000) times in a hot loop.

I wrote up a more focused "Python latency numbers you should know" as a quiz here https://thundergolfer.com/computers-are-fast

Re: Python numbers every programmer should know

#49
I have some questions and requests for clarification/suspicious behavior I noticed after reviewing the results and the benchmark code, specifically:

- If slotted attribute reads and regular attribute reads are the same latency, I suspect that either the regular class may not have enough "bells on" (inheritance/metaprogramming/dunder overriding/etc) to defeat simple optimizations that cache away attribute access, thus making it equivalent in speed to slotted classes. I know that over time slotting will become less of a performance boost, but--and this is just my intuition and I may well be wrong--I don't get the impression that we're there yet.

- Similarly "read from @property" seems suspiciously fast to me. Even with descriptor-protocol awareness in the class lookup cache, the overhead of calling a method seems surprisingly similar to the overhead of accessing a field. That might be explained away by the fact that property descriptors' "get" methods are guaranteed to be the simplest and easiest to optimize of all call forms (bound method, guaranteed to never be any parameters), and so the overhead of setting up the stack/frame/args may be substantially minimized...but that would only be true if the property's method body was "return 1" or something very fast. The properties tested for these benchmarks, though, are looking up other fields on the class, so I'd expect them to be a lot slower than field access, not just a little slower (https://github.com/mikeckennedy/python-numbers-everyone-shou...).

- On the topic of "access fields of objects" (properties/dataclasses/slots/MRO/etc.), benchmarks are really hard to interpret--not just these benchmarks, all of them I've seen. That's because there are fundamentally two operations involved: resolving a field to something that produces data for it, and then accessing the data. For example, a @property is in a class's method cache, so resolving "instance.propname" is done at the speed of the methcache. That might be faster than accessing "instance.attribute" (a field, not a @property or other descriptor), depending on the inheritance geometry in play, slots, __getattr[ibute]__ overrides, and so on. On the other hand, accessing the data at "instance.propname" is going to be a lot more expensive for most @properties (because they need to call a function, use an argument stack, and usually perform other attribute lookups/call other functions/manipulate locals, etc); accessing data at "instance.attribute" is going to be fast and constant-time--one or two pointer-chases away at most.

- Nitty: why's pickling under file I/O? Those benchmarks aren't timing pickle functions that perform IO, they're benchmarking the ser/de functionality and thus should be grouped with json/pydantic/friends above.

- Asyncio's no spring chicken, but I think a lot of the benchmarks listed tell a worse story than necessary, because they don't distinguish between coroutines, Tasks, and Futures. Coroutines are cheap to have and call, but Tasks and Futures have a little more overhead when they're used (even fast CFutures) and a lot more overhead to construct since they need a lot more data resources than just a generator function (which is kinda what a raw coroutine desugars to, but that's not as true as most people think it is...another story for another time). Now, "run_until_complete{}" and "gather()" initially take their arguments and coerce them into Tasks/Futures--that detection, coercion, and construction takes time and consumes a lot of overhead. That's good to know (since many people are paying that coercion tax unknowingly), but it muddies the boundary between "overhead of waiting for an asyncio operation to complete" and "overhead of starting an asyncio operation". Either calling the lower-level functions that run_until_complete()/gather() use internally, or else separating out benchmarks into ones that pass Futures/Tasks/regular coroutines might be appropriate.

- Benchmarking "asyncio.sleep(0)" as a means of determining the bare-minimum await time of a Python event loop is a bad idea. sleep(0) is very special (more details here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46056895) and not representative. To benchmark "time it takes for the event loop to spin once and produce a result"/the python equivalent of process.nextTick, it'd be better to use low-level loop methods like "call_soon" or defer completion to a Task and await that.

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