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Stop Slopware

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41–50 of 171 posts

Re: Stop Slopware

#41

> if you’re doing this for your own learning: you will learn better without AI. This is not the distinction I would want to tell newcomers. AI is extremely good for finding out what the most common practices are for all kinds of situations. That's a powerful learning tool. Besides, learning how to use a tool well (one that we can expect professionals to use) is part of learning. Now most common practices and best pra…

You can go to a restaurant to see new dishes (which isn't nothing) but it wont exactly teach you how to cook.

Re: Stop Slopware

#42

> if you’re doing this for your own learning: you will learn better without AI. This is not the distinction I would want to tell newcomers. AI is extremely good for finding out what the most common practices are for all kinds of situations. That's a powerful learning tool. Besides, learning how to use a tool well (one that we can expect professionals to use) is part of learning. Now most common practices and best pra…

This is like telling people to learn how to draw by only looking at the masters' paintings in person instead of tracing and imitating from possibly stolen but otherwise cheap books at home.

I would say to at least just read what the AI does and ask it questions if you don't understand what it did. You can interactively learn software development from AI in a way that you cannot from a human simply because it won't run out of patience even if it will lie to you.

The results depend mostly on how you use it.

Re: Stop Slopware

#43
post #29

You can't be serious. > When you publish something under the banner of open–source, you implicitly enter a stewardship role. You’re not just shipping files, you’re making a contribution to a shared commons. That carries certain responsibilities: clarity about purpose, honesty about limitations, and a basic alignment with the community’s collaborative ethos. (from the second link) You're not just writing angry screeds…

That assertion is also highly debatable. To me no part of releasing software under a free license implies a "stewardship role."

Re: Stop Slopware

#44

Why would any actual software engineer be against slopware? When it inevitably all comes crashing down because there was no actual software architecture or understanding of the code, someone will have to come in to make the actual product. Hopefully by then we will have realistic expectations for the LLM, have skilled up, and we as a community treat them as just another feature in the IDE.

Personally, I'd rather make something good instead of cleaning up a mess.

But beyond that, I'm really not looking forward to trying to discover new good libraries, tools, and such in 5 years time. The signal to noise is surely dropping.

Re: Stop Slopware

#45
post #36
post #6

> if you’re doing this for your own learning: you will learn better without AI . I'm certain that's not true. AI is the single biggest gift we could possible give to people who are learning to program - it's shaved that learning curve down to a point where you don't need to carve out six months of your life just to get to a point where you can build something small and useful that works. AI only hurts learning if you…

AI only hurts learning if you let it. You can still use AI and learn effectively if you are thoughtful about the way you apply it. I think that's very important. Never mind six months; with AI, "you" can "build" something small and useful that works in six minutes. But "you" almost certainly didn't learn anything, and I think it's quite questionable if "you" "built" something. I have found AI to be a great tool for l…

> Never mind six months; with AI, "you" can "build" something small and useful that works in six minutes. But "you" almost certainly didn't learn anything, and I think it's quite questionable if "you" "built" something.

I think you learned something critically important: that the thing you wanted to build is feasible to build.

A lot of ideas people have are not possible to build. You can't prove a negative but you CAN prove a positive: seeing a version of the thing you want to exist running in front of you is a big leap forward from pondering if it could be built.

That's a useful thing to learn.

The other day, at brunch, I had Claude Code on my phone add webcam support (with pinch-to-zoom) to my https://tools.simonwillison.net/is-it-a-bird is-it-a-bird CLIP-in-your-browser app. I didn't even have to look at the code it wrote to learn that it's possible for Mobile Safari to render the webcam input in a box on the page (not full screen) and to have a rough pinch-to-zoom mechanism work - it's pixelated, not actual-camera-zoom, but for a CLIP app that's fine because the zoom is really just to try and exclude things from the image that aren't a potential bird.

(The prompts I used for this are quoted in the PR description: https://github.com/simonw/tools/pull/175)

> Can I get that with AI? You bet. And probably even better, in some respects. But I have to deliberately choose to. It's way too easy to just grab the exact answer I wanted and be on my way.

100% agree with that. You need a lot of self-discipline to learn effectively with AI. I'd argue you need self-discipline to learn via other means as well though.

Re: Stop Slopware

#46

[flagged]

This is a bit more complex that you make it sound, and I'm wondering this is on purpose.

- Submission based magazines, who pay their writers, like Clarkesworld for example, are being flooded with LLM generated submissions. Those have been automated by people who hit every magazines multiple times with the hope that one makes it through and make a few bucks. This made the work of reviewer absolute hell, their volume of work multiplied by 10.

- The same is true with music, fake bands are being created and the music submitted to streaming platform with the hope that it will generate some kind of passive income

- Etsy shops are absolutely filled to the brim with bad AI slop, the whole platform became barely usable anymore

The same thing is absolutely true with software. You make is sound like it's a few hobbyist that are using AI tools to solve problems and that evil engineers are gatekeeping them because they want to be the only one mastering the arcane arts, but that's overly simplistic and frankly, intellectually dishonest, even if you set aside the fact that at some point one of those vibe coders is going the bite more that they can chew and expose their users, the vast majority of them is looking at making money easily, that means flooding the market with subpar software in hope to generate some money. Just browse a few of the vibe coders subreddits or discord channel to see that it's mostly what is being discussed.

And, I know I'm not the only one that noticed that over reliance on LLMs has some bad consequences on people, especially juniors. Yes it can be used properly in a productive way, but a lot of people don't bother. Make fun of people who are worried about it all you want, but for all the good gen AI will bring, there absolutely will be an enshitification of about everything. I won't even talk about the golden opportunity it is for scammers and malicious agents. I don't know if it'll be worth it, possibly ? But there will be a price to pay.

Re: Stop Slopware

#47

[flagged]

This attitude is of course very common and I just don’t understand it. Like when I read news from the other political party - it’s just confusing to me.

Are they scared for their jobs? Angry that their hard earned skills are getting devalued? Genuinely concerned about copyright violations in LLM training? Or just don’t want the world to change? (Kids get off my lawn!)

Re: Stop Slopware

#48
post #6

> if you’re doing this for your own learning: you will learn better without AI . I'm certain that's not true. AI is the single biggest gift we could possible give to people who are learning to program - it's shaved that learning curve down to a point where you don't need to carve out six months of your life just to get to a point where you can build something small and useful that works. AI only hurts learning if you…

It cannot be understated how much of a boon AI-assisted programming has been for getting stuff up and running. Once you get past the initial hurdle of setting up an environment along with any boilerplate, you can actually start running code and iterating in order to figure out how something works.

Cognitive bandwidth is limited, and if you need to fully understand and get through 10 different errors before anything works, that's a massive barrier to entry. If you're going to be using those tools professionally then eventually you'll want to learn more about how they work, but frontloading a bunch of adjacent tooling knowledge is the quickest way to kill someone's interest.

The standard choice isn't usually between a high-quality project and slopware, it's between slopware or nothing at all.

Re: Stop Slopware

#49
post #28
post #6

> if you’re doing this for your own learning: you will learn better without AI . I'm certain that's not true. AI is the single biggest gift we could possible give to people who are learning to program - it's shaved that learning curve down to a point where you don't need to carve out six months of your life just to get to a point where you can build something small and useful that works. AI only hurts learning if you…

A robot TA that gives the wrong answer 50% of the time isn't very helpful.

Right, but this is a TA that gives a wrong answer more like 10% of the time (or less).

I think it's possible that for learning a 90% accuracy rate is MORE helpful than 100%. If it gets things wrong 1/10th of the time it means you have to think critically about everything it tells you. That's a much better way to approach any source of information than blindly trusting it.

The key to learning is building your own robust mental model, from multiple sources of information. Treat the LLM as one of those sources, not the exclusive source, and you should be fine.

Re: Stop Slopware

#50

> if you’re doing this for your own learning: you will learn better without AI. This is not the distinction I would want to tell newcomers. AI is extremely good for finding out what the most common practices are for all kinds of situations. That's a powerful learning tool. Besides, learning how to use a tool well (one that we can expect professionals to use) is part of learning. Now most common practices and best pra…

It is a great learning tool for people who are willing to learn and put in the time and effort. Ask good questions, double check everything, read documentation and make sure they understand everything before they move on. It's a tremendous tool if used correctly. People who just hit tab or past everything Claude generates will get worse. The benefits of "the old way" is that even the people who didn't want to put in the effort where making some improvement if only by friction and time spent.
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