With all this gold, Spain went on a buying spree, weapons, art, churches etc - and the sellers(rest of Europe) industrialized as the gold trickled down into THEIR economies.
When the gold no longer arrived, Spain went into a steady decline as their rich upper crust of RC Churche, Kings, Queens, Lords, Ladies etc. and eventually became democratic after Franco.
What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)
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Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)
#42> For the latter part of the 1500s and on into the 1600s Spain was a debtor nation, spending more abroad than it took in. The result was a net outflow of gold and silver. Attempts were made to restrict the export of precious metals, but without much success. In the end it all simply dribbled away. The problem was that the conquest of the New World left Spain with a lot more money, but not that much more wealth, if yo…
Spain was different. There were no 'proper' colonies, but everyething was deal as if they were an inner province in Iberia. That's the way you could get fancy universities for its time.
But backwards people like Ferdinand the 7th cut down the modernisation of Spain which could boost us up to the level of France if not more. I'm no kidding. Just look at the Cádiz constitution from 1812.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_VII
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Constitution_of_1812
Not bad for its time at all.
Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)
#43Marx wrote about commodity fetishism. Perhaps the ultimate version is a belief gold is innately valuable. It has valuable properties, but almost its sole function is to be rare and desirable. That we now use gold for electronics in some ways undermines its rei-ification as the personification of value. Spain fucked up. They mistook the gold for something more valuable than Labor. The Merino sheep of Spain were a bett…
To be fair, Adam Smith and Marx would 100% agree on this point. It's not "capitalist" to confuse money with value, it's just a mistake.
A lot of Marx's writing was based on Smith's, so they agree a lot.
Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)
#44With all this gold, Spain went on a buying spree, weapons, art, churches etc - and the sellers(rest of Europe) industrialized as the gold trickled down into THEIR economies. When the gold no longer arrived, Spain went into a steady decline as their rich upper crust of RC Churche, Kings, Queens, Lords, Ladies etc. and eventually became democratic after Franco.
We were democratic before Franco. Twice. Until the damn conservatives threw the Republic down, twice, too.
Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gold is used by industry at current prices due to its physical properties, so its current price and value are fairly close. This still allows for significant price swings because there vast quantities of gold sitting around in vaults, but unlike say bitcoin it does have high intrinsic value. IE: If gold sustained a 90% drop in price across decades at lot more would be used by industry creating a price floor.
How can you conclude that the current price and value is fairly close? Seems to me that all you are showing (rightly so) is that there are some use of gold which has higher value than today's price. I agree that industry use creates a price floor, but that might be much lower than what the price is today. I.e if suddenly everyone lost faith in gold as a carrier of value, so everyone who keeps gold just as a passive k…
Gold's resistance to oxidation is pretty unique and valuable. Every metal with similar properties is also expensive — palladium is the most common and its price hovers around several hundred dollars per ounce despite being much less popular for jewelry or currency.
Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
Money is the thing you use to buy things. Wealth is having those things. Only in an ideal world are the two the same. The world is not ideal.
But why couldn't they, e.g. buy other people's thing in exchange for their gold? IOW, why is the relevant fact that _Spain_ didn't have much more wealth despite having more gold? Other people in other countries valued (and still value) gold too.
They could and they did. That meant that Spain ended up importing more and exporting less, which would have been bad for Spanish businesses.
There’s a lot more to “wealth” than just having a bunch of stuff. Especially in the long term, since most “stuff” will wear out or otherwise decay over time.
Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Huh? If you melt down gold, how are you not staring at the same gold? Moscow didn't steal anything either.
"The Spaniards will never see their gold again, just as they don't see their ears" this is supposedly what Stalin said according to Alexander Orlov. From the same link.
You didn't answer my question.
Cherrypicking a quote from Stalin who was using sarcastic humor at a banquet when the gold arrived also doesn't refute my point or answer my question.
Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)
#48Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)
#49> The problem was that the conquest of the New World left Spain with a lot more money, but not that much more wealth, if you follow me. ELI5, please!
Actual EL5 - Stregga Nona but with money.
Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)
#50Marx wrote about commodity fetishism. Perhaps the ultimate version is a belief gold is innately valuable. It has valuable properties, but almost its sole function is to be rare and desirable. That we now use gold for electronics in some ways undermines its rei-ification as the personification of value. Spain fucked up. They mistook the gold for something more valuable than Labor. The Merino sheep of Spain were a bett…
Gold is a VERY unique metal and its value comes directly from that. Particularly the complete lack of oxidation, I'm sure it was seen as absolutely magic that it would not tarnish while every other metal known at the time would oxidize very easily. Value is ultimately always in the eye of the beholder.
> Value is ultimately always in the eye of the beholder.
If you mean value per se, not at all. There are difference kinds of value (intrinsic, instrumental).
A piece of bread has objective nutritional value, for example. It doesn’t matter whether you personally dislike bread.