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Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

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Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#41

I actually consider the pager attack to be legal. There's obviously criticism of it, but I'm fairly sure you're allowed to do this kind of thing by laws of war. Obviously this creates a huge problem for pretty much everyone though, since we can imagine that our ordinary consumer products from all sorts countries could similarly explode if we ended up at war with the manufacturers.

> "laws of war"

What you want to appeal to are just war principles.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#42
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/world/middleeast/lebanon-... > Fatima was in the kitchen on Tuesday when a pager on the table began to beep, her aunt said. She picked up the device to bring it to her father and was holding it when it exploded, mangling her face and leaving the room covered in blood, she said.

They don't mind maiming children.

She died.

I think there are also rules against attacking combatants in civilian contexts, like their homes.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really a "mundane daily object" though. It's a communications device that's issued to people on the Hezbollah private communications network. It's only accessible to non-combatants if they are (1) in the Hezbollah hierarchy in a non-combatant role, or (2) the person with the pager was exercising poor operational security and letting someone else handle their pager.

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The laws of war don't expect a military to attack a target only if there was no risk to civilians. That would be so unrealistic that nobody would even attempt to follow the laws of war. There has to be some consideration of relative risk and proportionality.

Where you draw the line is complicated. If you look at what the allies did in WWII for instance, there are some decisions that are highly problematic (firebombing wooden Japanese cities or the RAF deliberately bombing German civilian populations) but there are also some decisions that I think were reasonable even with a very high civilian death toll (e.g. the US Eight Air Force conducting bombing raids on German industry with limited precision, leading to high civilian casualties).

I think this specific incident was lawful. Hezbollah was the aggressor here, and it spent the war launching attacks that were far less justifiable than this one (much more limited targeting). I think this was a reasonable act of self-defense. That doesn't mean that I think that everything Israel did in the war was lawful.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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It's a war, you know. People die. Sometimes in perfectly legal and justified strikes, sometimes in attacks that contravene the laws of war. And given that Hamas uses the civilians under their control as both a sword and a shield, and that Egypt simply refuses their obligation under IHL to allow refugees to flee, collateral damage is an unfortunate inevitability.

Lumping together all civilians killed by Israel in the course of war is overly reductive: Some were killed in unlawful intentional acts, some were unfortunate collateral damage of lawful acts, and some were intentional victims of Hamas brutality, sacrificed at the altar of making Israel look bad.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#48

I actually consider the pager attack to be legal. There's obviously criticism of it, but I'm fairly sure you're allowed to do this kind of thing by laws of war. Obviously this creates a huge problem for pretty much everyone though, since we can imagine that our ordinary consumer products from all sorts countries could similarly explode if we ended up at war with the manufacturers.

Attacking a civilian population is a war crime.

Targeting here goes beyond reasonable expectation from a military at war. Compare that to the russian terror of lobbing 500kg bombs at random housing blocks.

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#49
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking a civilian population is a war crime.

"It's not a war crime the first time!" Anyway sadly even if they did start attacking civilians, say Palestinian civilians as a random example, who is going to enforce the penalty for war crimes. These days its seems they're more of a suggestion than a rule of engaging in war.

War crime laws only apply to poorer nations sadly

Re: Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be under the impression that they targeted pagers that were distributed through civilian channels. These were pagers that were purchased BY Hezbollah to be used on Hezbollah's private, secure network, not on a public network. These were not pagers used by a hospital for normal healthcare work. Healthcare workers were carrying these pagers because Hezbollah effectively serves as a shadow state in Lebanon.…

Again, so what? You aren't off the hook because of the actions of your enemies. It was obvious these would be going off around civilians, in homes and public spaces, including hospitals, and they chose to go through with the attack knowing this. That the civilians who would be around them would have no particular reason to fear or suspect this attack, because the vector was a common daily object . It was an attack on…

It wasn't a non-military political goal. It had a military purpose of taking out the communications network and personnel of a group that was actively engaged in combat.
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