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After the Bubble

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41–50 of 86 posts

Re: After the Bubble

#41
post #2

There is no AI bubble. The housing bubble was about artificially inflated housing assets. People have been calling Bitcoin a bubble since it was introduced. Has it popped? No. Has it reached the popularity and usability crypto shills said it would? Also no. AI on the other hand has the potential to put literally millions of individuals out of work. At a minimum, it is already augmenting the value of highly-skilled in…

I'd argue the crypto bubble did pop.

Bitcoin/crypto doesn't have earnings reports, but many crypto-adjacent companies have crashed down to earth. It would have been worse but regulation, or sometimes lack thereof, stopped them from going public so the bleeding was limited.

Re: After the Bubble

#42

I think the interesting thing to think about its that we _already_ fired people in the name of AI (because AI was supposed to be this huge efficiency gain). When the bubble pops, do you fire _even more_ people? What does that look like given the decimation in the job market already?

When the bubble pops, AI companies fire people (up to everyone). Non-AI companies hire people back, because it becomes clear that AI won't do their job for them.

Re: After the Bubble

#43
post #5

> When the early-electrification bubble built, we were left with the grid. And when the dot-com bubble burst, we were left with a lot of valuable infrastructure whose cost was sunk, in particular dark fibre. The AI bubble? Not so much. Except for the physical buildings, permitting, and power grid build-out.

> Except for the physical buildings, permitting, and power grid build-out. Those are extremely localized at a bunch of data centers and how much of that will see further use? And how much grid work has really happened (there are a lot of announcement about plans to maybe build nuclear reactor etc., but those projects take a lot of time, if ever done) nVidia managed to pivot their customer base from crypto mining to A…

> Those are extremely localized at a bunch of data centers and how much of that will see further use?

As much as there is market for somewhat-less-expensive data centers. (Data centers where somebody else already paid the cost of construction.)

And where they are doesn't matter. The internet is good at shipping bits to various places.

Re: After the Bubble

#44
post #20

I have been thinking. The reality is that in general employees are not paid for value/revenue/profit they generate. That sets the floor. But they are paid what market sets as rate for their demand. See people putting together high cost electronics. Clearly lot of value there with margins what they are, but not lot of pay. Wouldn't AI largely be race to bottom? As such even if expensive employees get replaced, the cos…

To your first point, yes we're moving slowly towards a more general awareness that most employees are paid market (replacement) rate, not their share of value generated. As the replacement rate drops, so will wages, even if the generated value skyrockets. Unsurprisingly, business owners and upper management love this.

To the second point, the race to the bottom won't be evenly distributed across all markets or market segments. A lot of AI-economy predictions focus on the idea that nothing else will change or be affected by second and third order dynamics, which is never the case with large disruptions. When something that was rare becomes common, something else that was common becomes rare.

Re: After the Bubble

#45
post #22

> Nobody who is doing this is willing to come clean with hard numbers but there are data points, for example from Meta and (very unofficially) Google. The Meta link does not support the point. It's actually implying a MTBF of over 5 years at 90% utilizization even if you assume there's no bathtub curve. Pretty sure that lines up with the depreciation period. The Google link is even worse. It links to https://www.toms…

Besides, if the claim about GPU wear-and-tear was true, this would show up consistently in GPUs sourced from cryptomining (which was generally done in makeshift compute centers with terrible cooling and other environmental factors) and it just doesn't.

Re: After the Bubble

#46
post #21
post #18

> The GenAI bubble is going to pop. Everyone knows that. I think the first part of this is probably true, but I don’t think everyone knows it. A lot of people are acting like they don’t know it. It feels like a bubble to me, but I don’t think anyone can say to a certainty that it is, or that it will pop.

It’s a non sequitur, like saying “Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded.” I’m guessing the author meant it tongue in cheek but really meant “everyone I know or follow knows it’s a bubble”

No, it can still be a bubble when everybody knows it's a bubble. If the price is still going up, I may know it's a bubble, and still not get out, because I'm still making money. But it's a hair-trigger thing, where everybody gets more and more ready to run for the exits at the first sign of trouble.

Re: After the Bubble

#48
There's many questions about the overall economics of AI, its value, is it overvalued, is it not, etc. but this is a very poor article I suspect made by someone with little to no financial or accounting knowledge with a strong "uh big tech bad" bias.

> When companies buy expensive stuff, for accounting purposes they pretend they haven’t spent the money; instead they “depreciate” it over a few years.

There's no pretending. It's accounting. When you buy an asset, you own it, it is now part of your balance sheet. You incur a cost when the value of the asset falls, i.e. it depreciates. If you spend 20k on a car you are not pretending to not having spent 20k by considering it an asset, you spent money but now you have something of similar value as an asset. Your cost is the depreciation as years go by and the car becomes less valuable. That's a very misleading way to put it.

> Management gets to pick your depreciation period, (...)

They don't. GAAP, IFRS, or whatever other accounting rules that apply to the company do. There's some degree of freedom in certain situations but it's not "management wants". And it's funny that the author thinks that companies in general are interested in defining longer useful lives when in most cases (this depends on other tax considerations) it's the opposite because while depreciation is a non-cash expense you can get real cash by reducing your taxable income and the sooner you get that money the better. There's some more nuance to this, tax vs accounting, how much freedom management has vs what is industry practice and auditors will allow you to do... my point is, again, "management gets to pick" is not an accurate representation of what goes on.

> It’s like this. The Big-Tech giants are insanely profitable but they don’t have enough money lying around to build the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of data centers the AI prophets say we’re going to need.

Actually they do, Meta is the one that has the least but it could still easily raise that money. Meta in this case just thinks it's a better deal to share risk with investors that at the moment have a very strong appetite to own these assets. Meta is actually paying a higher rate through these SPVs compared to funding them outright. Now, personally I don't know how I would feel about that deal in particular if I was an investor just because you need to dig a little deeper in their balance sheet to have a good snapshot of what is going on but it's not any trick, arguably it can make economic sense.

Re: After the Bubble

#49
post #20

I have been thinking. The reality is that in general employees are not paid for value/revenue/profit they generate. That sets the floor. But they are paid what market sets as rate for their demand. See people putting together high cost electronics. Clearly lot of value there with margins what they are, but not lot of pay. Wouldn't AI largely be race to bottom? As such even if expensive employees get replaced, the cos…

[deleted]

Re: After the Bubble

#50

I am not effected by this version of bubble, except for I want RAM prices to come down for my new PC build.

All, you have to do is wait. Seriously, just wait. if the tech deflationists are right, you'll get more cost effective memory every several years or decades at least.

In somehwere around 1999, my high school buddy, worked overtime shifts to afford a CPU he had waited forever to buy! Wait for it, it was a 1 GHZ CPU!

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