Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her • Hacker News Board

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#41

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 4:07 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #28

michaelochurch wrote: post #22

I don't think we'll ever know whether she's right or wrong. She could quite possibly be in the wrong, but I increasingly doubt it the more I read. Here's why: her firm acted like a massive dick. First, making employees sign a non-disparagement, arbitration-only agreement (except as a term in a severance negotiation) is vile and should be illegal. You're effectively threatening to fire someone (or rescind an offer) if…

How are employment contracts for 6-figure jobs "under duress"? KPCB isn't obliged to hire anyone. It seems entirely reasonable that they should be able to choose their own terms, and, similarly, if employee candidates don't like those terms, they don't take the job. What you've done here is subtly shifted the frame of the discussion. You make it sound like if she didn't sign the contract, she'd be fired . That's not…

[deleted]

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#42

Post by WiseWeasel » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 4:16 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #20

digitalengineer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said it exactly: "They feel that they have been mistreated... It's a feeling and you can never control how someone feels. At her level I would expect her to be professional about it and communicate within the team about her feelings. I don't think suing and posting on Quora helps her or the company involved. That was 100% "feelings" as well. Not professional.

[redacted snark] You are right that it's often tactically the wrong decision to post about an ongoing dispute. I will give you that. I'd be surprised if any attorney would recommend for her to post on Quora about the termination while the suit was ongoing. However, this one-sided "professionalism" whereby people are expected to keep the secrets of employers who fuck them over is disgusting. That expectation exists be…

I don't see how suing my employer can ever be the right answer when passed over for a promotion. For something as subjective as employee performance in a company, I am the last person qualified to evaluate my own performance or suitability for leadership. In general, an individual's word is worth less than an organization's, particularly when it concerns their own financial interests. Any winnings in the slim chance a discrimination suit against my employer goes in my favor are likely outweighed by the damage to my career as I am seen as a litigation risk for the rest of my life.

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#43

Post by nashequilibrium » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 4:17 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #41

tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are employment contracts for 6-figure jobs "under duress"? KPCB isn't obliged to hire anyone. It seems entirely reasonable that they should be able to choose their own terms, and, similarly, if employee candidates don't like those terms, they don't take the job. What you've done here is subtly shifted the frame of the discussion. You make it sound like if she didn't sign the contract, she'd be fired . That's not…

[deleted]

Wow! What has here husband got to do with anything? Also you seem to be discounting her husbands claims without knowing much of his history, from being a trader I have read a lot of material on this guy and his story is nothing short of amazing. He also did get a settlement in the 80s when the firm thought that he was too young to get paid the money he earned. He settled for less than what he was supposed to get. You should really research situations before making broad claims about people and their ethics. Reading one nymag article is not research. Regarding Ellen Pao, I will wait to hear more evidence before I make any accusations but the guy that was married and always coming onto her does not seem like appropriate behavior.

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#44

Post by rprasad » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 4:19 PM UTC

jcampbell1 wrote: post #36

rayiner wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is what happens when all employers follow suit with this arbitration garbage and it becomes standard practice, which it is becoming. Employers have all the leverage in these cases.

What is the problem with arbitration? If I were Ms Pao, I wouldn't want a jury trial. Jurors hate people who they think are looking for a handout. Here is how it is going to play out: "KPCB is an investment fund, meaning we take money from groups such as a teacher's union retirement fund, and invest it in companies. The returns from those investments are paid back to the investor, ultimately helping secure the retire…

>What is the problem with arbitration?

The problem is that the company pays for the arbitor, who is usually an independent contractor hired on a per-arbitration basis. The arbitor is ecnomically pressured to side with the company, because siding against the company is likely not to result in repeat business. This effect is well-established and has been documented (I'll come back and post a reply with sources if I have the time).

Jury trials are a bad idea when the jury can't relate to the victim. Getting a fair jury is almost impossible in a sexual harassment case.

Getting a fair jury is not only possible, it's almost impossible not to get a fair jury for a civil trial. Sexual mores and attitudes have changed significantly over the past several decades, to the point where sexual harassment is no longer perceived as acceptable in the general workplace by either gender.

Note that in male-centric fields (sports, programming, etc.) attitudes toward sexual harassment have not changed as much as they have in more gender-balanced fields. This skewed perspective on sexual harassment has made more than a few plaintiff's lawyers quite wealthy.

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#45

Post by tptacek » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 4:41 PM UTC

rprasad wrote: post #44

jcampbell1 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the problem with arbitration? If I were Ms Pao, I wouldn't want a jury trial. Jurors hate people who they think are looking for a handout. Here is how it is going to play out: "KPCB is an investment fund, meaning we take money from groups such as a teacher's union retirement fund, and invest it in companies. The returns from those investments are paid back to the investor, ultimately helping secure the retire…

>What is the problem with arbitration? The problem is that the company pays for the arbitor, who is usually an independent contractor hired on a per-arbitration basis. The arbitor is ecnomically pressured to side with the company, because siding against the company is likely not to result in repeat business. This effect is well-established and has been documented (I'll come back and post a reply with sources if I hav…

Can companies reliably avoid discrimination lawsuits with binding arbitration clauses in employment contracts?

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#46

Post by nancyhua » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 5:29 PM UTC

SeoxyS wrote: post #2

I'm surprised it took so long, actually. What did she expect? Suing her employer makes her a massive liability to the firm. The only thing keeping her there was how a firing would reflect on the case and in the press. KPCB must've decided that the bad press was the better alternative (and rightly so, IMHO).

Exactly, I don't know why she didn't quit right away- even if it turns out her claims are completely true, can she still work in a place that she's (successfully or unsuccessfully) sued? And why would she want to? And why would you want an employee who's sued you? Is it standard to keep going to work after suing someone?

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#47

Post by nancyhua » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 5:36 PM UTC

digitalengineer wrote: post #13

I have no idea who this person is. From what I understand she sued her employer because she claims she "was shut out of promotions" and did (or did not) get fired. Then she used Quora to tell the world she was fired. Her employer replied saying she was not fired, but is "in a successful career transition". I suppose she was done working anywhere . Who would want to hire someone like that?

I think she definitely cut her ties to the VC world by doing this which is why it's such a big deal despite none of us knowing who she is- she's either forfeiting her career to take a stand, or she's forfeiting her career for money/attention. Which possibility sounds more probable? I don't know.

The only thing I know about her is an article from when this lawsuit first came out saying her married boss gave her a book on sex poetry with a handwritten note inside of it. She claimed he would often make suggestive remarks and the others wouldn't invite her to parties with founders bc having a woman would "kill the buzz" (Is this tenable? Do men think women kill the buzz? I always get invited to stuff but I don't know if I'm missing special male tech networking parties). Those claims sound really gross and easily testable- if she has the book then they should fire that guy and if witnesses come forward saying they had all-male VC-founder parties then that's evidence of gender affecting her networking and career.

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#48

Post by larrys » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 6:01 PM UTC

rprasad wrote: post #44

jcampbell1 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the problem with arbitration? If I were Ms Pao, I wouldn't want a jury trial. Jurors hate people who they think are looking for a handout. Here is how it is going to play out: "KPCB is an investment fund, meaning we take money from groups such as a teacher's union retirement fund, and invest it in companies. The returns from those investments are paid back to the investor, ultimately helping secure the retire…

>What is the problem with arbitration? The problem is that the company pays for the arbitor, who is usually an independent contractor hired on a per-arbitration basis. The arbitor is ecnomically pressured to side with the company, because siding against the company is likely not to result in repeat business. This effect is well-established and has been documented (I'll come back and post a reply with sources if I hav…

"The arbitor is ecnomically pressured to side with the company, because siding against the company is likely not to result in repeat business."

Arbitrators are typically agreed upon by attorney's of both sides or specified by a neutral higher authority (judge etc.)

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#49

Post by larrys » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 6:05 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #28

michaelochurch wrote: post #22

I don't think we'll ever know whether she's right or wrong. She could quite possibly be in the wrong, but I increasingly doubt it the more I read. Here's why: her firm acted like a massive dick. First, making employees sign a non-disparagement, arbitration-only agreement (except as a term in a severance negotiation) is vile and should be illegal. You're effectively threatening to fire someone (or rescind an offer) if…

How are employment contracts for 6-figure jobs "under duress"? KPCB isn't obliged to hire anyone. It seems entirely reasonable that they should be able to choose their own terms, and, similarly, if employee candidates don't like those terms, they don't take the job. What you've done here is subtly shifted the frame of the discussion. You make it sound like if she didn't sign the contract, she'd be fired . That's not…

"How are employment contracts for 6-figure jobs "under duress"? KPCB isn't obliged to hire anyone."

In "entitledville" they are duress.

Re: Ellen Pao Says Kleiner Perkins Has Now Fired Her

#50

Post by ta12121 » Wed, Oct 03, 2012, 7:29 PM UTC

larrys wrote: post #48

rprasad wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What is the problem with arbitration? The problem is that the company pays for the arbitor, who is usually an independent contractor hired on a per-arbitration basis. The arbitor is ecnomically pressured to side with the company, because siding against the company is likely not to result in repeat business. This effect is well-established and has been documented (I'll come back and post a reply with sources if I hav…

"The arbitor is ecnomically pressured to side with the company, because siding against the company is likely not to result in repeat business." Arbitrators are typically agreed upon by attorney's of both sides or specified by a neutral higher authority (judge etc.)

Perhaps, but that does not disprove the quoted claim.