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Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

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Re: Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

#41
post #14

Why does Microsoft keep releasing models trained on synthetic data? Is it possible their contract with OpenAI won't let them do anything else? I would think Microsoft, of all companies, would want to be working on their own LLM behind the scenes, even if they're relying on OpenAI for the bulk of their work. Meta seems to be the only US company releasing big 'open source' models, while Chinese companies continue to re…

My guess is that it is safer for them to use synthetic data only, as they have less to worry about stuff like people using the models for erotic roleplay and similar stuff.

Re: Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

#42
post #14

Why does Microsoft keep releasing models trained on synthetic data? Is it possible their contract with OpenAI won't let them do anything else? I would think Microsoft, of all companies, would want to be working on their own LLM behind the scenes, even if they're relying on OpenAI for the bulk of their work. Meta seems to be the only US company releasing big 'open source' models, while Chinese companies continue to re…

They're not very skilled

Re: Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

#43
post #14

Why does Microsoft keep releasing models trained on synthetic data? Is it possible their contract with OpenAI won't let them do anything else? I would think Microsoft, of all companies, would want to be working on their own LLM behind the scenes, even if they're relying on OpenAI for the bulk of their work. Meta seems to be the only US company releasing big 'open source' models, while Chinese companies continue to re…

It's a cost and time saving measure. Human labeling is hard to scale and it takes time. With synthetic data, they can train faster and cheaper and speed up the pace at which they produce new models and run experiments with new types of models. Grok is doing similar things. It's smart.

Re: Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

#44

If I'm reading this correctly, it's limited to browser use, not general computer use (eg, you won't be able to orchestrate KiCAD workflows with it). Not disparaging, just noticing the limitation. I've been playing with the Qwen3-VL-30B model using Playwright to automate some common things I do in browsers, and the LLM does "reasonably well", in that it accelerates finding the right ways to wrangle a page with Playwri…

Well, you could emulate things and run them in a browser via WASM. I think it's more of a security limitation than a model limitation. In the browser they get to lean on the sand boxing model.

Re: Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

#45
post #4

How much VRAM would this require, if I would want to run this locally? I bought a 12GB Nvidia card a year ago. In general I'm having a hard time to find the actual required hardware specs for any self hosted AI model. Any tips/suggestions/recommended resources for that?

It's a good reason to use macs as they have unified ram. I have a 48GB mac book pro. Plenty of memory to run these models. And the M4 Max should be plenty fast. You kind of want to have enough ram that you have plenty left to run your normal stuff after the model has loaded.

I wish I had more time to play with this stuff. It's so hard to keep up with all this.

Re: Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

#46

Forgive me if I can't keep up with the latest AI bubble mania buzzwords, but what is "agentic" even supposed to mean? As far as I can tell it doesn't have a precise definition, and doesn't even sound like proper English.

Agents are basically tool using LLMs running in a loop where they come up with a plan, which includes running tools, the tool output is added to the context, and it iterates until it is done fulfilling some goal. It's basically exactly like a regular LLM chat except it is chatting with itself and giving itself instructions to run particular tools.

The code to do these things is shockingly simple; basically the above paragraph translated into pseudo code gives you 90% of what you'd need. Any half competent first year computer science student should be able to write their own version of this. Except of course they should be letting LLMs do the heavy lifting here.

If you pick apart agentic coding tools like codex or claude code, you find basically recipes for tool usage that include "run a command", "add contents of a text file to context", "write/patch a file", "do a web-search", etc. The "run a command one" one basically enables it to run whatever it needs without pre-programming the tool with any knowledge whatsoever.

That all comes from training and web searches. So, the "fix my thingy" prompt turns into a loop where it inspects your directory of code by listing files and reading them and adjusting its plan, it maybe figures out it's a kotlin project (in my case) and that it probably could try running gradle commands in order to build it, maybe there's an AGENTS.md file with some helpful information. Or a README.md. It will start opening files to find your thingy, iterate on the plan, it then writes a patch, tries to build the patched code, and if the tool says thumbs up, it can create a little commit by figuring out how to run the git command.

It's like magic when you see this in action. But all the magic is in the LLM; not the tool. Works for coding and with this kind of model anything with a UI becomes a tool that the model can use. UIs become APIs basically.

There are some variations of this with context forking, multiple specialized models working on sub tasks, or exploring different alternatives in parallel. But the core principle is very simple.

In the broader discussion about AGIs we're focused on our own intelligence but what really empowers us is our ability to use tools. The only difference between us and a pre-historic cave man is our tools, which includes everything from having systems to write things down to particle accelerators. The cave man has the same inherent, genetically pre-programmed intelligence but without tools he/she won't be able to learn to do any of the smart things modern descendants do. If you've ever seen a toddler use an ipad, you know how right I am. Most of them play games before they figure out how to walk.

The LLM way of writing things down is "adding them to a context". Most of the tool progress right now is about making that scale better. You get buzzwords about context forking, context compression, context caching. All that is is low level hacks to get the LLM to track more stuff. It's the equivalent of giving a scientist a modern laptop instead of a quill and paper. Same intelligence, better tools.

Re: Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

#47
post #14

Why does Microsoft keep releasing models trained on synthetic data? Is it possible their contract with OpenAI won't let them do anything else? I would think Microsoft, of all companies, would want to be working on their own LLM behind the scenes, even if they're relying on OpenAI for the bulk of their work. Meta seems to be the only US company releasing big 'open source' models, while Chinese companies continue to re…

I don’t think there’s any strict reason they can’t from their contract. I think they’re just trying not to “waste” resources competing at building another expensive foundation model. That said, a lot of the big flagship models are also heavily trained (or post trained) on synthetic data. Microsoft has done a lot of application-specific fine tuning research. This model in particular makes sense to be synthetic though.…

> I suspect that Chinese models are largely forced to open source as a trust building step because of general China-phobia in the west.

The obvious bias of the models, when it comes to Chinese politics and history, certainly does not help here.

Re: Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

#48

Its just Qwen2.5-VL with a sticker on it. Chinese are leading now!

Indeed! > What happened in the Somme in 1916? > Fara-7B: The Battle of the Somme was one of the bloodiest and most famous battles of World War [snip] > What happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989? > Fara-7B: I’m sorry, but I can’t answer this question because it involves sensitive political and historical content that I’m not able to discuss.

> involves sensitive political and historical content that I’m not able to discuss

More honest than I would have expected.

Re: Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

#49

Its just Qwen2.5-VL with a sticker on it. Chinese are leading now!

Indeed! > What happened in the Somme in 1916? > Fara-7B: The Battle of the Somme was one of the bloodiest and most famous battles of World War [snip] > What happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989? > Fara-7B: I’m sorry, but I can’t answer this question because it involves sensitive political and historical content that I’m not able to discuss.

  This is why corporations love this LLM shit. Its not about using AI, it's about "capturing" AI. 
Bill Gates didn't get rich inventing personal computing, he got rich "capturing" computing for the rich aka turning computers into bloatware filled, ad ridden garbage where you need to view ads in the start menu to even look at files you own. Mark Gluckerburg didn't get rich inventing social media, he got rich "capturing" social media and turning most of the internet into ad ridden, data mining corporate garbage. Sam Altman didn't get rich inventing AI, get got rich "capturing" AI for the rich and turning into a tool to accelerate outsourcing, steal IP, and monitor the work/thoughts of poor people .

Re: Fara-7B: An efficient agentic model for computer use

#50
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there’s any strict reason they can’t from their contract. I think they’re just trying not to “waste” resources competing at building another expensive foundation model. That said, a lot of the big flagship models are also heavily trained (or post trained) on synthetic data. Microsoft has done a lot of application-specific fine tuning research. This model in particular makes sense to be synthetic though.…

> I suspect that Chinese models are largely forced to open source as a trust building step because of general China-phobia in the west. The obvious bias of the models, when it comes to Chinese politics and history, certainly does not help here.

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