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A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

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Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#41

Post by anon291 »

Atlas667 wrote: post #11

"Society does not consist of individuals but expresses the sum of interrelations, the relations within which these individuals stand." - Karl Marx My last few comments on this site have been precisely about these ideas. These ideas, in my view, are inherent flaws of philosophical liberalism, of which modern liberalism and conservatism stem. This ideology places itself at the forefront of morality, but can't even seri…

One thing I noticed about marxists is that they themselves have a hierarchy surrounding the rich and poor which they imagine exists in everyone else.

In reality, hardly anyone thinks a poor man is 'spiritually bankrupt'. The main religion of the Western world says the poor man is in fact inherently better.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#42

Post by anon291 »

ramesh31 wrote: post #18
roarcher wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the uncomfortable answer behind the question of "Why do WASPs own everything?" The correct answer to that question is "they don't".

>The correct answer to that question is "they don't Read the list and try to find a single non-WASP family: https://www.forbes.com/families/list/

Owning a lot of things and owning most of the things is a completely different thing . Obviously people who have more history in a place will be richer. This is hardly surprising.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#43

Post by lazide »

quesera wrote: post #23
lazide wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, I thought it was the Jews that owned everything? Or was it the Freemasons? I can’t even keep track anymore. I can’t think of a single WASP billionaire though - maybe that’s the mind control at work?

> I can’t think of a single WASP billionaire though Gates, Buffett, Musk ... all spring to mind. White certainly. Anglo-Saxon doesn't mean much more than "of western/northern european ancestry" any more. Protestant as much as any other non-Catholic Christian sect. But WASP doesn't mean literally what it means any more, so maybe I'm missing the reason you overlooked the most famous modern American-citizen billionaires…

So the only thing out of it they actually are is… white?

Hahahaha

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#44

Post by roarcher »

Atlas667 wrote: post #38
roarcher wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What level of analysis would you consider "complete"? Certainly if we accounted for every neuron in their brain we could reduce their achievements to whatever configuration of gray matter produced the thoughts and actions that led to their success, and whatever external events produced that configuration. But then we would be at a level of analysis that regards us all as automatons, where nobody, including the group,…

> could reduce their achievements to whatever configuration of gray matter Even if we could do that it would not "reduce" any personal value. I think these are biases you may have. Accountability can be defined, even in that total view. And right now, even in the incomplete view that we have, it is defined socially and politically. And that's what my real take is: That the ideas that most people have of self, person-…

> They serve a political purpose.

Indeed.

> That vague notion that "some people are just different" is the base for many political violations.

As is the idea that everyone is an interchangeable unit of labor, all producing the same outputs if only they were given the same inputs.

> If anything the ideal, final form of what I am saying is this: Real Incorruptible Democracy.

I don't know what you mean by this, but I am highly skeptical of anything that claims a title like "incorruptible". Such things are usually the exact opposite, sort of like countries with "Democratic Republic" in their name or ships billed as "unsinkable".

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#45

Post by danparsonson »

roarcher wrote: post #24
jagged-chisel wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for every successful person, there are countless others born to a similar level of privilege who squandered it. Indeed. > The claim that everyone owes their successes to the group ignores this. This doesn't follow. Can you elaborate?

By "owe" I mean that the credit for their success belongs to the group and not the individual, because the individual was merely a product of good circumstances provided by the group. I believe this is the sentiment intended by the "no such thing as a self made man" crowd--no individual is special, and anyone else would achieve similar things under similar circumstances. This ignores the fact that many others DO enjo…

Owing your success to something is not the same as saying that having the something guarantees success. I owe my love of Korean food to my time spent living in South Korea; others may live there and come away hating it.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#46

Post by jagged-chisel »

roarcher wrote: post #24
jagged-chisel wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for every successful person, there are countless others born to a similar level of privilege who squandered it. Indeed. > The claim that everyone owes their successes to the group ignores this. This doesn't follow. Can you elaborate?

By "owe" I mean that the credit for their success belongs to the group and not the individual, because the individual was merely a product of good circumstances provided by the group. I believe this is the sentiment intended by the "no such thing as a self made man" crowd--no individual is special, and anyone else would achieve similar things under similar circumstances. This ignores the fact that many others DO enjo…

I see - some attribute of themselves has set them apart from the ones who had similar circumstances but squandered the opportunity. I guess it depends on how fine you track those circumstances. Did they all have that super-supportive friend named Trey that always knew then correct supportive thing to say? Personally, I can point to many times in my life where a teacher, grandparent, pastor made overt attempts to derail me. Maybe I wasn't completely derailed, but it slowed my progress and may have taken me along a less successful track for awhile. Looking back, I'm surprised I've done what I have. But I do wonder what kind of success I might have had if those naysayers had actually provided support.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#47

Post by danparsonson »

api wrote: post #10

In the debate between self made and team effort my opinion is “both.” Nobody starts from zero. Everyone builds on the work of others with help from others. At the same time, individuals can make unique contributions and are not just interchangeable parts. You see this over and over again in art, music, engineering, science, literature, etc., or really anything requiring skill. People aren’t interchangeable. I think b…

It's just a restatement of 'nature vs nurture' isn't it? And as you say, both of those things are necessary. Broadly, greatness without circumstances likely leads to obscurity; circumstances without greatness likely leads to indolence. The latter being what often seems to happen in families with generational wealth - some family member makes the fortune, and some later generation, lacking the earlier drive, squanders it.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#48

Post by [deleted] »

lazide wrote: post #43
quesera wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can’t think of a single WASP billionaire though Gates, Buffett, Musk ... all spring to mind. White certainly. Anglo-Saxon doesn't mean much more than "of western/northern european ancestry" any more. Protestant as much as any other non-Catholic Christian sect. But WASP doesn't mean literally what it means any more, so maybe I'm missing the reason you overlooked the most famous modern American-citizen billionaires…

So the only thing out of it they actually are is… white? Hahahaha

[deleted]

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#49

Post by quesera »

lazide wrote: post #43
quesera wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can’t think of a single WASP billionaire though Gates, Buffett, Musk ... all spring to mind. White certainly. Anglo-Saxon doesn't mean much more than "of western/northern european ancestry" any more. Protestant as much as any other non-Catholic Christian sect. But WASP doesn't mean literally what it means any more, so maybe I'm missing the reason you overlooked the most famous modern American-citizen billionaires…

So the only thing out of it they actually are is… white? Hahahaha

I guess it depends on the original poster's intention.

If your point is that people have colloquialized "WASP", and that I fell into your trap, then OK you got me. :)

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#50

Post by rimbo789 »

anon291 wrote: post #41
Atlas667 wrote: post #11

"Society does not consist of individuals but expresses the sum of interrelations, the relations within which these individuals stand." - Karl Marx My last few comments on this site have been precisely about these ideas. These ideas, in my view, are inherent flaws of philosophical liberalism, of which modern liberalism and conservatism stem. This ideology places itself at the forefront of morality, but can't even seri…

One thing I noticed about marxists is that they themselves have a hierarchy surrounding the rich and poor which they imagine exists in everyone else. In reality, hardly anyone thinks a poor man is 'spiritually bankrupt'. The main religion of the Western world says the poor man is in fact inherently better.

Read any thread in HN about the unhoused and it is very clear many many people think the poor deserve their condition and are lesser for being so.
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