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Ilya Sutskever: We're moving from the age of scaling to the age of research

dwarkesh.com

41–50 of 374 posts

Re: Ilya Sutskever: We're moving from the age of scaling to the age of research

#41
post #21

Even as criticism targets major model providers, his inability to answer clearly about revenue & dismissing it as a future concern reveals a great deal about today's market. It's remarkable how effortlessly he, Mira, and others secure billions, confident they can thrive in such an intensely competitive field. Without a moat defined by massive user bases, computing resources, or data, any breakthrough your researchers…

They have a moat defined by being well known in the AI industry, so they have credibility and it wouldn't be hard for anything they make to gain traction. Some unknown player who replicates it, even if it was just as good as what SSI does, will struggle a lot more with gaining attention.

Being well known doesn’t qualify as a moat.

Re: Ilya Sutskever: We're moving from the age of scaling to the age of research

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fridman is a morally broken grifter, who just built a persona and a brand on proven lies, claiming an association with MIT that was de facto non-existent. Not wanting to give the guy recognition is not a matter of being liberal or conservative, but just interested in truthfulness.

Patel takes anticommunism to such an extreme that he repeatedly brings up and speculates (despite being met with repudiation by even the staunchest anticommunist of guests) whether naziism is preferable, that Hitler should have the war against Soviets, that the US should have collaborated with Hitler to defeat communism, and that the enduring spread of naziism would have been a good tradeoff to make.

Where does he say this?

Re: Ilya Sutskever: We're moving from the age of scaling to the age of research

#43

Even as criticism targets major model providers, his inability to answer clearly about revenue & dismissing it as a future concern reveals a great deal about today's market. It's remarkable how effortlessly he, Mira, and others secure billions, confident they can thrive in such an intensely competitive field. Without a moat defined by massive user bases, computing resources, or data, any breakthrough your researchers…

> confident they can thrive in such an intensely competitive field.

I agree these AI startups are extremely unlikely to achieve meaningful returns for their investors. However, based on recent valley history, it's likely high-profile 'hot startup' founders who are this well-known will do very well financially regardless - and that enables them to not lose sleep over whether their startup becomes a unicorn or not.

They are almost certainly already multi-millionaires (not counting ill-liquid startup equity) just from private placements, signing bonuses and banking very high salaries+bonus for several years. They may not emerge from the wreckage with hundreds of millions in personal net worth but the chances are very good they'll probably be well into the tens of millions.

Re: Ilya Sutskever: We're moving from the age of scaling to the age of research

#44

Even as criticism targets major model providers, his inability to answer clearly about revenue & dismissing it as a future concern reveals a great deal about today's market. It's remarkable how effortlessly he, Mira, and others secure billions, confident they can thrive in such an intensely competitive field. Without a moat defined by massive user bases, computing resources, or data, any breakthrough your researchers…

Sometimes I wonder who the rational individuals at the other end of these deals are and what makes them so confident. I always assume they have something that general public cannot deduce from public statements

Re: Ilya Sutskever: We're moving from the age of scaling to the age of research

#45
post #18

The impactful innovations in AI these days aren't really from scaling models to be larger. It's more concrete to show higher benchmark scores, and this implies higher intelligence, but this higher intelligence doesn't necessarily translate to all users feeling like the model has significantly improved for their use case. Models sometimes still struggle with simple questions like counting letters in a word, and most p…

> this implies higher intelligence

Not necessarily. The problem is that we can't precisely define intelligence (or, at least, haven't so far), and we certainly can't (yet?) measure it directly. And so what we have are certain tests whose scores, we believe, are correlated with that vague thing we call intelligence in humans. Except these test scores can correlate with intelligence (whatever it is) in humans and at the same time correlate with something that's not intelligence in machines. So a high score may well imply high intellignce in humans but not in machines (e.g. perhaps because machine models may overfit more than a human brain does, and so an intelligence test designed for humans doesn't necessarily measure the same thing we think of when we say "intelligence" when applied to a machine).

This is like the following situation: Imagine we have some type of signal, and the only process we know produces that type of signal is process A. Process A always produces signals that contain a maximal frequency of X Hz. We devise a test for classifying signals of that type that is based on sampling them at a frequency of 2X Hz. Then we discover some process B that produces a similar type of signal, and we apply the same test to classify its signals in a similar way. Only, process B can produce signals containing a maximal frequency of 10X Hz and so our test is not suitable for classifying the signals produced by process B (we'll need a different test that samples at 20X Hz).

Re: Ilya Sutskever: We're moving from the age of scaling to the age of research

#47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Scaling" is going to eventually apply to the ability to run more and higher fidelity simulations such that AI can run experiments and gather data about the world as fast and as accurately as possible. Pre-training is mostly dead. The corresponding compute spend will be orders of magnitude higher.

That's true, I expect more inference time scaling and hybrid inference/training time scaling when there's continual learning rather than scaling model size or pretraining compute.

Simulation scaling will be the most insane though. Simulating "everything" at the quantum level is impossible and the vast majority of new learning won't require anything near that. But answers to the hardest questions will require as close to it as possible so it will be tried. Millions upon millions of times. It's hard to imagine.

Re: Ilya Sutskever: We're moving from the age of scaling to the age of research

#48
post #30

https://metr.org/blog/2025-03-19-measuring-ai-ability-to-com... He’s wrong we still scaling, boys.

That blog post is eight months old. That feels like pretty old news in the age of AI. Has it held since then?

Re: Ilya Sutskever: We're moving from the age of scaling to the age of research

#49
post #30

https://metr.org/blog/2025-03-19-measuring-ai-ability-to-com... He’s wrong we still scaling, boys.

You should read the transcript. He's including 2025 in the age of scaling.

> Maybe here’s another way to put it. Up until 2020, from 2012 to 2020, it was the age of research. Now, from 2020 to 2025, it was the age of scaling—maybe plus or minus, let’s add error bars to those years—because people say, “This is amazing. You’ve got to scale more. Keep scaling.” The one word: scaling.

> But now the scale is so big. Is the belief really, “Oh, it’s so big, but if you had 100x more, everything would be so different?” It would be different, for sure. But is the belief that if you just 100x the scale, everything would be transformed? I don’t think that’s true. So it’s back to the age of research again, just with big computers.

Re: Ilya Sutskever: We're moving from the age of scaling to the age of research

#50

How did Dwarkesh manage to build a brand that can attract famous people to his podcast? He didn’t have prior fame from something else in research or business, right? Curious if anyone knows his growth strategy to get here.

Overnight success takes years (he has been doing the podcast for 5 years).
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