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The Cloudflare outage might be a good thing

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Re: The Cloudflare outage might be a good thing

#41

Post by krige »

MikeNotThePope wrote: post #32
chii wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the root cause is customers refusing to punish these downtime. Checkout how hard customers punish blackouts from the grid - both via wallet, but also via voting/gov't. It's why they are now more reliable. So unless the backbone infrastructure gets the same flak, nothing is going to change. After all, any change is expensive, and the cost of that change needs to be worth it.

Is a little downtime such a bad thing? Trying to avoid some bumps and bruises in your business has diminishing returns.

What's "a little downtime" to you might be work ruined and day wasted for someone else.

Re: The Cloudflare outage might be a good thing

#42

Post by mopsi »

chii wrote: post #26
captainkrtek wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be a good thing, if it would cause anything to change. It obviously won't. I agree wholeheartedly. The only change is internal to these organizations (eg: CloudFlare, AWS) Improvements will be made to the relevant systems, and some teams internally will also audit for similar behavior, add tests, and fix some bugs. However, nothing external will change. The cycle of pretending like you are going to impleme…

the root cause is customers refusing to punish these downtime. Checkout how hard customers punish blackouts from the grid - both via wallet, but also via voting/gov't. It's why they are now more reliable. So unless the backbone infrastructure gets the same flak, nothing is going to change. After all, any change is expensive, and the cost of that change needs to be worth it.

Downtimes happen one way or another. The upside of using Cloudflare is that bringing things back online is their problem and not mine like when I self-host. :]

Their infrastructure went down for a pretty good reason (let the one who has never caused that kind of error cast the first stone) and was brought back within a reasonable time.

Re: The Cloudflare outage might be a good thing

#43

Post by Aurornis »

stroebs wrote: post #21

The problem is far more nuanced than the internet simply becoming too centralised. I want to host my gas station network’s air machine infrastructure, and I only want people in the US to be able to access it. That simple task is literally impossible with what we have allowed the internet to become. FWIW I love Cloudflare’s products and make use of a large amount of them, but I can’t advocate for using them in my prof…

> and I only want people in the US to be able to access it. That simple task is literally impossible with what we have allowed the internet to become.

Is anyone else as confused as I am about how common anti-openness and anti-freedom comments are becoming on HN? I don’t even understand what this comment wants: Banning VPNs? Walling off the rest of the world from US internet? Strict government identity and citizenship verification of people allowed to use the internet?

It’s weird to see these comments get traction after growing up in an internet where tech comments were relentlessly pro freedom and openness on the web. Now it seems like every day I open HN and there are calls to lock things down, shut down websites, institute age (and therefore identify) verification requirements. It’s all so foreign and it feels like the vibe shift happened overnight.

Re: The Cloudflare outage might be a good thing

#44

Post by Aurornis »

stroebs wrote: post #36
Fnoord wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally impossible? On the contrary; Geofencing is easy. I block all kind of nefarious countries on my firewall, and I don't miss them (no loss not being able to connect to/from a mafia state like Russia). Now, if I were to block FAMAG... or Cloudflare...

Yes, literally impossible. The barrier to entry for anyone on the internet to create a proxy or VPN to bypass your geofencing is significantly lower than your cost to prevent them.

I don’t even understand where this line of reasoning is going. Did you want a separate network blocked off from the world? A ban on VPNs? What are we supposed to believe could have been disallowed to make this happen?

Re: The Cloudflare outage might be a good thing

#47

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

Centralization has nothing to do with the problems of society and technology. And if you think the internet is all controlled by just a couple companies, you don't actually understand how it works. The internet is wildly decentralized. Even Cloudflare is. It offers tons of services, all of which are completely optional and can be used individually. You can also stop using them at any time, and use any of their competitors (of which there are many).

If, on the off chance, people just get "addicted" to Cloudflare, and Cloudflare's now-obviously-terrible engineering causes society to become less reliable, then people will respond to that. Either competitors will pop up, or people will depend on them less, or governments will (finally!) impose some regulations around the operation of technical infrastructure.

We have actually too much freedom on the Internet. Companies are free to build internet systems any way they want - including in very unreliable ways - because we impose no regulations or standards requirements on them. Those people are then free to sell products to real people based on this shoddy design, with no penalty for the products falling apart. So far we haven't had any gigantic disasters (Great Chicago Fire, Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire, MGM Grand Hotel Fire), but we have had major disruptions.

We already dealt with this problem in the rest of society. Buildings have building codes, fire codes, electrical codes. They prescribe and require testing procedures, provide standard building methods to ensure strength in extreme weather, resist a spreading fire long enough to allow people to escape, etc. All measures to ensure the safety and reliability of the things we interact with and depend on. You can build anything you want - say, a preschool? - but you aren't allowed to build it in a shoddy manner. We have that for physical infrastructure; now we need it for virtual infrastructure. A software building code.

Re: The Cloudflare outage might be a good thing

#48

Post by zrm »

stroebs wrote: post #21

The problem is far more nuanced than the internet simply becoming too centralised. I want to host my gas station network’s air machine infrastructure, and I only want people in the US to be able to access it. That simple task is literally impossible with what we have allowed the internet to become. FWIW I love Cloudflare’s products and make use of a large amount of them, but I can’t advocate for using them in my prof…

> I want to host my gas station network’s air machine infrastructure, and I only want people in the US to be able to access it. That simple task is literally impossible with what we have allowed the internet to become.

That task was never simple and is unrelated to Cloudflare or AWS. The internet at a fundamental level only knows where the next hop is, not where the source or destination is. And even if it did, it would only know where the machine is, not where the person writing the code that runs on the machine is.

Re: The Cloudflare outage might be a good thing

#50

Post by asimovDev »

stroebs wrote: post #21

The problem is far more nuanced than the internet simply becoming too centralised. I want to host my gas station network’s air machine infrastructure, and I only want people in the US to be able to access it. That simple task is literally impossible with what we have allowed the internet to become. FWIW I love Cloudflare’s products and make use of a large amount of them, but I can’t advocate for using them in my prof…

not a sysadmin here. why wouldn't this be behind a VPN or some kind of whitelist where only confirmed IPs from the offices / gas stations have access to the infrastructure?
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