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Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

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Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#41

Post by naasking »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #38
phkahler wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love the MIT license. If this were further along we could use this as the foundation of our business without having to "give back" device drivers and other things.

MIT licensed code is a gift. A gift indeed doesn't require the recipient to give back anything related to the gift. A "gift" requiring GPL-like conditions isn't really a gift in the common sense. It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations. They're giving while also asserting control over others' lives, hoping for a specific outcome. That's not just a gift.…

MIT is throwing a free party where food and drinks are paid for, and copyleft is where food is paid for but you BYOB. Both are fine, so what's the problem?

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#42

Post by hexagonal-sun »

andrewl-hn wrote: post #33
hexagonal-sun wrote: post #2

Hello! For the past 8 months, or so, I've been working on a project to create a Linux-compatible kernel in nothing but Rust and assembly. I finally feel as though I have enough written that I'd like to share it with the community! I'm currently targeting the ARM64 arch, as that's what I know best. It runs on qemu as well as various dev boards that I've got lying around (pi4, jetson nano, AMD Kria, imx8, etc). It has…

> no networking support Would something like Smoltcp be of help here? https://github.com/smoltcp-rs/smoltcp Great project either way! How do you decide which sys calls to work on? Is is based on what the user space binaries demand?

Yip, I panic whenever I encounter a syscall that I can't handle and that prompts me to implement it.

Yeah, I was thinking of integrating that at some point. They've done a really nice job of keeping it no_std-friendly.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#43

Post by vacuity »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #38
phkahler wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love the MIT license. If this were further along we could use this as the foundation of our business without having to "give back" device drivers and other things.

MIT licensed code is a gift. A gift indeed doesn't require the recipient to give back anything related to the gift. A "gift" requiring GPL-like conditions isn't really a gift in the common sense. It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations. They're giving while also asserting control over others' lives, hoping for a specific outcome. That's not just a gift.…

While the FSF's vision for the GPL is clear, the GPL itself is not so powerful that it is more than a "gift" that has some terms if you want to do certain things you are not obligated to do. It is like a grant that enforces some reasonable conditions so the money isn't just misappropriated. I wouldn't give that to a friend for their birthday, but I think it's reasonable that powerful organizations should not be free to do whatever they want. Not that the GPL is perfect for that use, but it's good.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#44

Post by pessimizer »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #38
phkahler wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love the MIT license. If this were further along we could use this as the foundation of our business without having to "give back" device drivers and other things.

MIT licensed code is a gift. A gift indeed doesn't require the recipient to give back anything related to the gift. A "gift" requiring GPL-like conditions isn't really a gift in the common sense. It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations. They're giving while also asserting control over others' lives, hoping for a specific outcome. That's not just a gift.…

> It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations.

The obligation is not to the author of the code, it is to the public. MIT-style licenses are gifts to people and companies who produce code and software, copyleft licenses are gifts to the public.

I don't give a shit about the happiness of programmers any more than the happiness of garbage collectors, sorry. I don't care more that you have access to the library you want to use at your job writing software for phones than I care that somebody has access to the code on their own phone. You're free to care about what you want, but the pretense at moral superiority is incoherent.

It is non-negotiable. GPL is basically proprietary software. It's owned by the public, and all of the work that you do using it belongs to the public. If you steal it, you should be sued into the ground.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#45

Post by 533474 »

bfrog wrote: post #37
phkahler wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love the MIT license. If this were further along we could use this as the foundation of our business without having to "give back" device drivers and other things.

This should be the sort of red flag to take note of. There’s an LLVM fork for every esoteric architecture now and this sort of thinking will lead to never being able to run your own software on your own hardware again. A reversion to the dark ages of computing.

Great, an MIT license to accelerate planned obsolescence and hardware junk. Truly a brilliant move

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#46

Post by mordae »

sneak wrote: post #28
p0w3n3d wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because otherwise big tech companies will take it and modify and release hardware with it without releasing patches etc? Basically being selfish and greedy?

It is neither selfish nor greedy to accept and use a gift freely given to you. Receiving a gift does not confer obligations on the recipient.

It does. There is an implied expectation that the recipient will will not be selfish. They can pay it back, pay it forward, possibly later when they can afford it, etc., but they are expected not to be selfish and also give someone something eventually.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#47

Post by surajrmal »

phkahler wrote: post #36
hexagonal-sun wrote: post #2

Hello! For the past 8 months, or so, I've been working on a project to create a Linux-compatible kernel in nothing but Rust and assembly. I finally feel as though I have enough written that I'd like to share it with the community! I'm currently targeting the ARM64 arch, as that's what I know best. It runs on qemu as well as various dev boards that I've got lying around (pi4, jetson nano, AMD Kria, imx8, etc). It has…

Love the MIT license. If this were further along we could use this as the foundation of our business without having to "give back" device drivers and other things.

Do you think soup kitchens and food banks should only serve food to those who volunteer? MIT is a perfectly fine FOSS license.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#48

Post by surajrmal »

533474 wrote: post #45
bfrog wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be the sort of red flag to take note of. There’s an LLVM fork for every esoteric architecture now and this sort of thinking will lead to never being able to run your own software on your own hardware again. A reversion to the dark ages of computing.

Great, an MIT license to accelerate planned obsolescence and hardware junk. Truly a brilliant move

Linux magically solves this problem how? GPL isn't magic. It doesn't compel contributing upstream. And half of modern driver stacks live in userspace anyways.

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#49

Post by devnullbrain »

marty-oehme wrote: post #10

Very cool project! I do have to admit - looking far, far into the future - I am a bit scared of a Linux ABI-compatible kernel with an MIT license.

It will be compatible for ~5 minutes:

https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.10/process/stable-api-non...

Re: Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code

#50

Post by pstoll »

pessimizer wrote: post #44
nickpsecurity wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MIT licensed code is a gift. A gift indeed doesn't require the recipient to give back anything related to the gift. A "gift" requiring GPL-like conditions isn't really a gift in the common sense. It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations. They're giving while also asserting control over others' lives, hoping for a specific outcome. That's not just a gift.…

> It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations. The obligation is not to the author of the code, it is to the public. MIT-style licenses are gifts to people and companies who produce code and software, copyleft licenses are gifts to the public. I don't give a shit about the happiness of programmers any more than the happiness of garbage collectors, sorry. I d…

I get what your saying but I think it’s not the best way to describe it - “GPL is property”? Hardly - it’s a societal common good that can be used by anyone interested in helping that common good.

Are parks “proprietary”? I can’t run my car dealership from one, so it’s …proprietary? No. So using the terminology of “proprietary” doesn’t do justice to what it actually is.

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