This assumes that most exploits are discovered by pro-active third-party security vendors, instead of being noticed in deployed projects. Is this actually true?
We should all be using dependency cooldowns
41–50 of 287 posts
Re: We should all be using dependency cooldowns
#42I think there’s a much stronger argument for policies that both limit the number and complexity of dependencies. Don’t add it unless it’s highly focused (no “everything libraries” that pull in entire universes of their own) and carries a high level of value. A project’s entire dependency tree should be small and clean. Libraries themselves should perhaps also take a page from the book of Linux distributions and offer…
I'd be willing to pay $100 to upvote your comment 100x.
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Re: We should all be using dependency cooldowns
#43I would like to see a variant of this that is based on a manual review/audit process rather than a time-based cooldown.
Something like, upgrade once there are N independent positive reviews AND less than M negative reviews (where you can configure which people are organisations you trust to audit). And of course you would be able to audit dependencies yourself (and make your review available for others).
Re: We should all be using dependency cooldowns
#44People in this thread are worried that they are significantly vulnerable if they don't update right away. However, this is mostly not an issue in practice. A lot of software doesn't have continuous deployment, but instead has customer-side deployment of new releases, which follow a slower rhythm of several weeks or months, barring emergencies. They are fine. Most vulnerabilities that aren't supply-chain attacks are o…
A million times this. You update a dependency when there are bug fixes or features that you need (and this includes patching vulnerabilities!). Those situations are rare. Otherwise you're just introducing risk into your system - and not that you're going to be caught in some dragnet supply chain attack, but that some dependency broke something you relied on by accident.
Dependencies are good. Churn is bad.
Re: We should all be using dependency cooldowns
#45Re: We should all be using dependency cooldowns
#46People in this thread are worried that they are significantly vulnerable if they don't update right away. However, this is mostly not an issue in practice. A lot of software doesn't have continuous deployment, but instead has customer-side deployment of new releases, which follow a slower rhythm of several weeks or months, barring emergencies. They are fine. Most vulnerabilities that aren't supply-chain attacks are o…
> for critical vulnerabilities to assess whether your product is affect by it. Only then do you need to update that specific dependency right away.
This is indeed what's missing from the ecosystem at large. People seem to be under the impression that if a new release of software/library/OS/application is released, you need to move to it today. They don't seem to actually look through the changes, only doing that if anything breaks, and then proceed to upgrade because "why not" or "it'll only get harder in the future", neither which feel like solid choices considering the trade-offs.
While we've seen to already have known that it introduces massive churn and unneeded work, it seems like we're waking up to the realization that it is a security tradeoff as well, to stay at the edge of version numbers. Sadly, not enough tooling seems to take this into account (yet?).
Re: We should all be using dependency cooldowns
#47The think I find most odd about the constant pressure to update to the most recent and implied best version is that there is some implicit belief that software get's uniformly better with each release.
Bottom line those security bugs are not all from version 1.0 , and when you update you may well just be swapping known bugs for unknown bugs.
As has been said elsewhere - sure monitor published issues and patch if needed but don't just blindly update.
Re: We should all be using dependency cooldowns
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
I upgrade all dependencies every time I deploy anything. If you don't, a zero day is going to bite you in the ass: that's the world we now live in. If upgrading like that scares you, your automated testing isn't good enough. On average, the most bug free Linux experience is to run the latest version of everything. I wasted much more time backporting bugfixes before I started doing that, than I have spent on new bugs…
Upgrading to new version can also introduce new exploits, no amount of tests can find those. Some of these can be short-lived, existing only on a minor patch and fixed on the next one promptly but you’ll get it if you upgrade constantly on the latest blindly. There is always risks either way but latest version doesn’t mean the “best” version, mistakes, errors happens, performance degradation, etc.
Personally, I choose to aggressively upgrade and engage with upstreams when I find problems, not to sit around waiting and hoping somebody will notice the bugs and fix them before they affect me :)
Re: We should all be using dependency cooldowns
#49The Debian stable model of having a distro handle common dependencies with a full system upgrade every few years looks more and more sane as years pass. It's a shame some ecosystems move waaay too fast, or don't have a good story for having distro-specific packages. For example, I don't think there are Node.js libraries packaged for Debian that allow you to install them from apt and use it in projects. I might be wro…
> For example, I don't think there are Node.js libraries packaged for Debian that allow you to install them from apt and use it in projects
Web search shows some: https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=node&searchon=na... (but also shows "for optimizing reasons some results might have been suppressed" so might not be all)
Although probably different from other distros, Arch for example seems to have none.
Re: We should all be using dependency cooldowns
#50I hate this. Delaying real bugfixes to achieve some nebulous poorly defined security benefit is just bad engineering.
The point is to apply a cooldown to your "dumb" and unaccountable automation, not to your own professional judgment as an engineer. If there's a bugfix or security patch that applies to how your application uses the dependency, then you review the changes, manually update your version if you feel comfortable with those changes, and accept responsibility for the intervention if it turns out you made a mistake and rush…
You're not thinking about the system dependencies.
> Meanwhile, most of the time, most changes pushed to dependencies are not even in the execution path of any given application that integration with them
Sorry, this is really ignorant. You don't appreciate how much churn their is in things like the kernel and glibc, even in stable branches.