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Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

elifesciences.org

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Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#41

Post by ahazred8ta »

mmaunder wrote: post #14

This relates to policy because it addresses the question of whether we carry epigenetic baggage from prior generations. For example, trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us. If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

They've discovered that eggs from women with certain medical conditions (including stress and poor diet) produce embryos with shorter telomeres, and in middle age the shorter telomeres lead to premature aging and a raft of health problems.

related: sperm from male rats who drink heavily produces children and grandchildren with reduced brain size and abnormal behavior -- there's an epigenetic male 'fetal alcohol syndrome'

But fortunately “We provide proof-of-concept that DNA resetting can be modulated in embryos where it is deficient, using currently available drugs, to influence telomere length at birth" https://www.adelaide.edu.au/robinson-research-institute/news...

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#42

Post by dash2 »

1. Pretty obviously, epigenetics in bacteria provides only very weak support for epigenetics in humans.

2. The case against epigenetics in humans is laid out nicely by Razib Khan: https://www.razibkhan.com/p/you-cant-take-it-with-you-straig...

3. I've been to a few conferences which mixed geneticists with (human) epigenetics guys, and I have never been impressed with the quality of their work. Lots of different measures of "biological clocks". Lots of multiple hypotheses without much correcting for them. No clear theory. I ended up being very skeptical.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#43

Post by foxglacier »

mmaunder wrote: post #14

This relates to policy because it addresses the question of whether we carry epigenetic baggage from prior generations. For example, trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us. If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

Yes, unscientific people will misuse it to support their racist ideas of black people inheriting trauma from slavery. They already do, but they're also extrapolating way beyond what research actually shows.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#44

Post by rolph »

dash2 wrote: post #42

1. Pretty obviously, epigenetics in bacteria provides only very weak support for epigenetics in humans. 2. The case against epigenetics in humans is laid out nicely by Razib Khan: https://www.razibkhan.com/p/you-cant-take-it-with-you-straig... 3. I've been to a few conferences which mixed geneticists with (human) epigenetics guys, and I have never been impressed with the quality of their work. Lots of different measu…

here is some reading for you:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/edited-volume/...

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12204592/

https://sciencevivid.com/epigenetics/

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#45

Post by throwaway173738 »

dash2 wrote: post #42

1. Pretty obviously, epigenetics in bacteria provides only very weak support for epigenetics in humans. 2. The case against epigenetics in humans is laid out nicely by Razib Khan: https://www.razibkhan.com/p/you-cant-take-it-with-you-straig... 3. I've been to a few conferences which mixed geneticists with (human) epigenetics guys, and I have never been impressed with the quality of their work. Lots of different measu…

I’d be curious to get to the heart of why we believe heritability in behavior is due to genetic changes. It’s way more likely to be due to mimetic changes.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#46

Post by throwaway173738 »

unwise-exe wrote: post #34
xgulfie wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What policy implications? Obviously wealth, class, race, nationality, and genetics are all highly heritable, what's one more twig on the pile of the birth lottery?

This sort of thing is always a call for generational guilt and reparations.

It’s also a good argument for not allowing children to be victims of their parents’ circumstances. Which is the heart of compulsory schooling and school lunch and a whole host of other things.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#47

Post by runlaszlorun »

roughly wrote: post #35

Epigenetics is one of those things that seems wild until you pull the camera back a bit. A cell is affected by and responds to its surroundings - this is not controversial. In eukaryotes, this is usually done by way of altering gene expression - up- or down-regulation by means of chemical markers on the cell’s DNA which are created or removed by enzymes which are activated or deactivated by certain substances in the…

Great writeup!

And as someone less knowledgeable about biological sciences than others, I think learned even more from your disclaimers!

p.s. If you know any good sources for adults to catch up on some biology basics, let me know.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#48

Post by Aurornis »

mmaunder wrote: post #14

This relates to policy because it addresses the question of whether we carry epigenetic baggage from prior generations. For example, trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us. If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

There is a vast gap between current epigenetic inheritance science in humans and all of the theories that epigenetic inheritance is a substantial carrier of inter generational trauma.

We’re still trying to figure out how much, if any, epigenetic inheritance applies to humans. If we did find some evidence, it wouldn’t be as simple as declaring that the trauma of previous generations harmed offspring. For example, it could be equally likely that offspring of prior generations that endured a lot of stress were actually more stress resilient and therefore received some advantages.

> If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

I disagree. As I said above, anyone jumping to conclusions that epigenetic inheritance could only confer negative traits is trying to force another concept (inter-generational trauma) into a convenient scientific carrier to make it appear to be a more valid policy position.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#49

Post by rolph »

tbrownaw wrote: post #33
mmaunder wrote: post #14

This relates to policy because it addresses the question of whether we carry epigenetic baggage from prior generations. For example, trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us. If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

This would require that it's a one-way door, where bad circumstances persist indefinitely across generations but good circumstances don't. It would also require that to not stretch back too far, since bad circumstances were rather universal before the modern age. In order for this supposed oddly specific effect to have policy implications, it would have to be simple to identify which individuals are impacted and by h…

an RNA interference scan of maternal gametic DNA would go a long way toward revealing identified epigenetic modifications; also would not be cheap.

this would also be accompanied by interviews, that would reveal high risk factors, as well as very intimate details of family history.

the payoff would have to be large, something more than the wellbeing of a single person from start to end, until we collectively grow up a bit more as a species.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#50

Post by rolph »

throwaway173738 wrote: post #45
dash2 wrote: post #42

1. Pretty obviously, epigenetics in bacteria provides only very weak support for epigenetics in humans. 2. The case against epigenetics in humans is laid out nicely by Razib Khan: https://www.razibkhan.com/p/you-cant-take-it-with-you-straig... 3. I've been to a few conferences which mixed geneticists with (human) epigenetics guys, and I have never been impressed with the quality of their work. Lots of different measu…

I’d be curious to get to the heart of why we believe heritability in behavior is due to genetic changes. It’s way more likely to be due to mimetic changes.

in terse, behaviour is dependent on neural activity; neural activity is dependent on expressivity, and penetrance of genetic constituency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioural_genetics

https://assets.cambridge.org/97811084/87979/frontmatter/9781... [PDF]

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