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As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

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Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#41

Post by s1mplicissimus »

mr_toad wrote: post #40
s1mplicissimus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but Tolkien was born in pre-war England where lifetime bachelors who weren't gay were a part of the usual society Suure those bachelors were all straight, there certainly weren't any gay ones who didn't dare to come out. Nothing to see here ;) IMO Sam & Frodo are at the very least intensely good friends, though I do have the strong impression that Sam is way more sacrificial than Frodo. Afair it's always Frodo who…

> where Sam represents the physical part of existence and Frodo represents the mental/psychological part. English classism in a nutshell.

I did mean to point to that, but in the other paragraph xD

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#42

Post by s1mplicissimus »

inglor_cz wrote: post #36
s1mplicissimus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but Tolkien was born in pre-war England where lifetime bachelors who weren't gay were a part of the usual society Suure those bachelors were all straight, there certainly weren't any gay ones who didn't dare to come out. Nothing to see here ;) IMO Sam & Frodo are at the very least intensely good friends, though I do have the strong impression that Sam is way more sacrificial than Frodo. Afair it's always Frodo who…

Looking at the relative burdens and tasks of Frodo and Sam, we might be underestimating the toll of the Ring-bearer, which, for 99 per cent of the time, is Frodo. The Ring is slowly poisoning him and invading his mind, more so that Sauron has risen again and his strength in the world is waxing. Plus, the terrible wound from the Morgul knife in his shoulder. Bilbo never faced anything quite like that, and Sam only for…

ah nice to see a fellow appreciator, hi!

Sooo what do you think then is the burden of the ring?

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#43

Post by inglor_cz »

s1mplicissimus wrote: post #42
inglor_cz wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at the relative burdens and tasks of Frodo and Sam, we might be underestimating the toll of the Ring-bearer, which, for 99 per cent of the time, is Frodo. The Ring is slowly poisoning him and invading his mind, more so that Sauron has risen again and his strength in the world is waxing. Plus, the terrible wound from the Morgul knife in his shoulder. Bilbo never faced anything quite like that, and Sam only for…

ah nice to see a fellow appreciator, hi! Sooo what do you think then is the burden of the ring?

I think at its worst, it might be something like a combination of cancer and schizophrenia (or withdrawal symptoms). Weakness, unability to rest, intensely intruding mad thoughts, despair.

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#44

Post by Insanity »

inglor_cz wrote: post #36
s1mplicissimus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but Tolkien was born in pre-war England where lifetime bachelors who weren't gay were a part of the usual society Suure those bachelors were all straight, there certainly weren't any gay ones who didn't dare to come out. Nothing to see here ;) IMO Sam & Frodo are at the very least intensely good friends, though I do have the strong impression that Sam is way more sacrificial than Frodo. Afair it's always Frodo who…

Looking at the relative burdens and tasks of Frodo and Sam, we might be underestimating the toll of the Ring-bearer, which, for 99 per cent of the time, is Frodo. The Ring is slowly poisoning him and invading his mind, more so that Sauron has risen again and his strength in the world is waxing. Plus, the terrible wound from the Morgul knife in his shoulder. Bilbo never faced anything quite like that, and Sam only for…

Same, that’s what HN is for! Glad my question sparked an interesting discussion about LoTR haha.

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#45

Post by amiga386 »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #4

Interesting. When I first read the Picture of Dorian Gray, I had no idea of its social context -- I didn't know Oscar Wilde was gay, I didn't know the book was considered controversial. I just picked it up on a whim and thought it was a well-written book full of fantastically clever dialogue and over-the-top cynicism. But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male…

You should read the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde as a follow up.

The original inspiration for it was Stevenson hearing about respectable pillar of Edinburgh society, William Brodie, being caught as a burglar, stealing to repay his gambling debts. Your social capital in Victorian Britain was based around your outward appearance of respectability and had to be defended to the utmost. If you were outed as a criminal, or as a homosexual, you'd lose every shred of privilege and position.

With that in mind, you can imagine the duality of Dr Jekyll trying to maintain his good standing while licentious Mr Hyde wants to engage in hijinks?

One such reading of the novella: https://sci-hub.st/10.1525/lal.2012.24.1.21

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#46

Post by [deleted] »

s1mplicissimus wrote: post #42
inglor_cz wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at the relative burdens and tasks of Frodo and Sam, we might be underestimating the toll of the Ring-bearer, which, for 99 per cent of the time, is Frodo. The Ring is slowly poisoning him and invading his mind, more so that Sauron has risen again and his strength in the world is waxing. Plus, the terrible wound from the Morgul knife in his shoulder. Bilbo never faced anything quite like that, and Sam only for…

ah nice to see a fellow appreciator, hi! Sooo what do you think then is the burden of the ring?

[deleted]

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#48

Post by joseda-hg »

retrac wrote: post #23
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #4

Interesting. When I first read the Picture of Dorian Gray, I had no idea of its social context -- I didn't know Oscar Wilde was gay, I didn't know the book was considered controversial. I just picked it up on a whim and thought it was a well-written book full of fantastically clever dialogue and over-the-top cynicism. But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male…

> But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male intimacy, and appreciation for male beauty, than our own. This might not be an entirely faulty perception. Wilde was, I think, aiming for plausible deniability. To hide the homoeroticism amidst the pretense of merely intense platonic love. Because in that time such expressions were often permissible. I've seen the t…

> Because no one would ever risk exposure. And so expression of non-sexual intimacies we would see as gay are not perceived as gay in those societies.

100% an interesting example of this that can even be seen in relatively recent history is the nature of some sports manerisms

The congratulatory ass slap or roughhousing, between people of the same gender is basically nothing of note (Enough to say, be televised), yet across diferent genders it's perceived as different enough to merit different treatment

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#49

Post by paulddraper »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #4

Interesting. When I first read the Picture of Dorian Gray, I had no idea of its social context -- I didn't know Oscar Wilde was gay, I didn't know the book was considered controversial. I just picked it up on a whim and thought it was a well-written book full of fantastically clever dialogue and over-the-top cynicism. But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male…

Huh, this is first time I am learning that too.

Goes to show that some themes of the human condition can be appreciated without being on the nose.

Re: As 'Dorian Gray' ages, its relevance only grows

#50

Post by bmacho »

Insanity wrote: post #24
retrac wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I was, ironically, left with an impression that the Victorian era was more comfortable with male intimacy, and appreciation for male beauty, than our own. This might not be an entirely faulty perception. Wilde was, I think, aiming for plausible deniability. To hide the homoeroticism amidst the pretense of merely intense platonic love. Because in that time such expressions were often permissible. I've seen the t…

Why is your example absurd? I read LoTR and definitely had the sense that Sam & Frodo were gay. I actually thought the hollywood version sanitized this away entirely and assumed it was because it'd be 'too controversial' at the time the films were made.

Obviously the statements of the parent comment, even if are true, don't apply to every single individual, but to the majority/vast majority.

While the parent hasn't provided any proofs, you alone are not really a counter example either that would warrant calling it "absurd".

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