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What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

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Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#41
post #4

I was there, 3000 years ago, when we started ringing the bell about “trusted computing”. Honestly it’s not as bad as I expected

The future is likely bifurcated trust: Official, encrypted, attested systems; and unofficial, unencrypted, unattested systems.

The GNU freedoms never specified the right to run free software side by side with proprietary software on the same hardware; so the FSF should actually be fine with such an outcome.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#42
post #24
post #4

I was there, 3000 years ago, when we started ringing the bell about “trusted computing”. Honestly it’s not as bad as I expected

Mobile is where it’s bad. It never took hold fully on desktop since desktop is used for development and too many other things.

But the "walled garden" on mobile (iOS mostly, but now also Android) isn't really about trusted computing at all. Trusted computing (locked bootloaders) is but a small part of it.

Trusted computing and even remote attestation have legitimate use cases. It's good, great even, that they exist. But just like everything, they can be used against you.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#43

Executive Summary: run Linux

Won't matter. Remote hardware attestation means they will know you're trying to bypass their control. You'll be denied service at every turn. Can't even log into your bank account.

IMO, I don't see how remote hardware attestation avoids being spoofed. Yes, TPM is involved, but the end of the day, it's an API request/response. There are so many ways the request could be spoofed, and the attestation likely requires coordination with hardware vendors that have proven to be Highly Secure TM with the history of secure boot leaks.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#44
post #9
post #2

The one word answer to this? Linux.

As long as common PCs can boot an iso we should be good to go.

Only as long as Google doesn't force Web Environment Integrity through. Running a custom OS won't help if important websites refuse to load unless they're running in an approved browser with a set of approved extensions, on an approved OS, on top of approved hardware.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#45
post #4

I was there, 3000 years ago, when we started ringing the bell about “trusted computing”. Honestly it’s not as bad as I expected

The future is likely bifurcated trust: Official, encrypted, attested systems; and unofficial, unencrypted, unattested systems. The GNU freedoms never specified the right to run free software side by side with proprietary software on the same hardware; so the FSF should actually be fine with such an outcome.

In fact FSF specifically exempts special purpose hardware like microwaves from its purview. The philosophy is targeted at software the user has a choice to install. If the hardware provider does not intend the user to choose to install an alternative version of the system software, software freedom doesn't come into play.

https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/free-bios.html

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#46
post #25

What happened was people ended up putting a lot of money and sensitive data on their computers and desired a system which wouldn’t expose that just because they ran the wrong software.

The better answer is to build better OSes with better security models. I should be able to run a crypto wallet I downloaded from a Kim Jong Un fan site while high and it shouldn’t be able to do anything I don’t give it permission to do. It’s totally possible. Tabs in a web browser are basically this. I can do it with VMs but that’s lots of extra steps.

Isn't that what Qubes is all about?

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#47
post #4

I was there, 3000 years ago, when we started ringing the bell about “trusted computing”. Honestly it’s not as bad as I expected

The future is likely bifurcated trust: Official, encrypted, attested systems; and unofficial, unencrypted, unattested systems. The GNU freedoms never specified the right to run free software side by side with proprietary software on the same hardware; so the FSF should actually be fine with such an outcome.

That seems to be either an oversimplified take on the FSF's position, or argument in bad faith. The FSF wants people to be able to run free software for all purposes, as they fight for user freedoms. If said free software cannot be used, because of all kinds of vendors limiting their services to proprietary software or platforms, then this should be a major concern to the FSF, because their advocated kind of software is being sabotaged.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#48
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wash me but don't get me wet." (Is this a saying in english?)

I guess you are trying to say: "You can’t have your cake and eat it too." ?!

Also, "want the milk without buying the cow", but I like "don't get me wet" because it highlights not wanting the result without the unpleasant step of the process. Then again, we have "dry cleaning" and ozempic.... https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/429316/wash-me-b...

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#49
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The better answer is to build better OSes with better security models. I should be able to run a crypto wallet I downloaded from a Kim Jong Un fan site while high and it shouldn’t be able to do anything I don’t give it permission to do. It’s totally possible. Tabs in a web browser are basically this. I can do it with VMs but that’s lots of extra steps.

Isn't that what Qubes is all about?

Yes but IMHO that approach is a hack. “Fix our 1970s OS by putting it in a box in our 1970s OS.”

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#50
post #25

What happened was people ended up putting a lot of money and sensitive data on their computers and desired a system which wouldn’t expose that just because they ran the wrong software.

The better answer is to build better OSes with better security models. I should be able to run a crypto wallet I downloaded from a Kim Jong Un fan site while high and it shouldn’t be able to do anything I don’t give it permission to do. It’s totally possible. Tabs in a web browser are basically this. I can do it with VMs but that’s lots of extra steps.

Web pages have a lot of restrictions even if you consider the gradual adoption of the project Fugu APIs
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