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Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

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Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#41

Post by hnaccount_rng »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #17
pfdietz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically the same reason recycling of PV modules hasn't taken off.

I've been intrigued by used solar panels for sale, seems like you can get an amazing price for ones that are only lightly degraded. Is there a downside, or do you just mean that it isn't popular currently?

In addition to my sibling comment: The cost of the panels is a rather small fraction of the total cost of a typical installation. Most of that cost ist labor, some regulatory requirements and the inverter. Whether you pay a factor of 2 for the panels or not typically doesn't matter. In other words: Reusing used panels will only ever be able to safe you a minuscule amount.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#44

Post by irons »

torginus wrote: post #31

Personally speaking, having just bought an Ioniq 5 and installing solar at home what I see as the near future improvement is adding V2L functionality, which I can hook up to the generator input of my solar inverter, essentially adding another 60kWh buffer to my grid storage. Considering how expensive residential batteries are and how quickly EVs depreciate, I think soon it'll be cheaper to get a used EV as a cheap so…

In the US, V2L limits your ability to output power from the car to about 1500 W. It's not going to power your house as more than a stopgap, even if you do have supplementary house batteries. V2H/V2G justify their complexity by solving that problem, along with all the ancillary grid benefits.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#45

Post by ACCount37 »

cogman10 wrote: post #20
ACCount37 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the early EV battery life projections were based on Nissan Leaf Gen 1. Which had a horrendous battery pack that combined poor choice of chemistry, aggressive usage and a complete lack of active cooling. When EVs with good battery pack engineering started hitting the streets, they outperformed those early projections by a lot. And by now, it's getting clear that battery pack isn't as much of a concern - with…

I'll defend the leaf a little. LiPo batteries were quiet expensive when it was initially released. NiMH was really the only option in town. And with a lower energy density battery that's also heavier, adding a cooling system would have also added a bunch of weight to the already heavy car with a barely usable range of 100 miles. Gen 2, however, had no excuses. They had every opportunity to add active cooling and they…

Leaf Gen 1 didn't have NiMH. It had a lithium-based battery chemistry, but some bastard offshoot of it. One that really didn't fare well under high current draw, or deep discharge, or high temperatures, or being looked at wrong.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#46

Post by noosphr »

epistasis wrote: post #27
JohnLocke4 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2040 fusion energy advancements will have gotten far enough to be the next technological step and make this redundant anyway

There's currently no technological path for fusion to be cheaper than fission. It would require a technological breakthrough that we have not yet imagined. And already, solar plus storage is cheaper than new nuclear. And solar and storage are getting cheaper at a tremendous rate. It's hard to imagine a scenario where fusion could ever catch up to solar and storage technology. It may be useful in places with poor sola…

The low energy future that was envisioned is not happening.

The AI arms race, which has become an actual arms race in the war in Ukraine, needs endless energy all times a day.

China is already winning the AI cold war because it adds more capacity to its grid a year than Germany has in a century.

If we keep going with agrarian methods of energy production don't be surprised that we suffer the same fate as the agrarian societies of the 19th century. Any country that doesn't have the capability to train and build drones on mass won't be a country for long.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#47

Post by floxy »

ACCount37 wrote: post #8
bryanlarsen wrote: post #2

This is less useful than most people expected. Redwood has been struggling because the expected battery turnover is not occurring. EV batteries are lasting a long time, so they stay in the car are and not being recycled or reused in any quantity yet. If EV batteries last 20+ years in EV's, it'll be > 2040 before there are significant numbers of EV batteries available to recycle or reuse. https://www.geotab.com/blog/e…

A lot of the early EV battery life projections were based on Nissan Leaf Gen 1. Which had a horrendous battery pack that combined poor choice of chemistry, aggressive usage and a complete lack of active cooling. When EVs with good battery pack engineering started hitting the streets, they outperformed those early projections by a lot. And by now, it's getting clear that battery pack isn't as much of a concern - with…

Don't forget that the original Leaf pack was only 24 kWh. So if you assume a ~1000 full-equivalent-charge-cycles lifespan, then the large Gen2 62 kWh pack will live 2.5 times longer than an original 24 kWh pack. If you average 3.5 miles/kWh, the 24 kWh battery will be expected to last somewhere around 84,000 miles. While the 62 kWh pack will last for 217,000 miles.

https://coolienergy.com/lfp-vs-nmc-batteries-the-science-beh...

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#48

Post by duskwuff »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #17
pfdietz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically the same reason recycling of PV modules hasn't taken off.

I've been intrigued by used solar panels for sale, seems like you can get an amazing price for ones that are only lightly degraded. Is there a downside, or do you just mean that it isn't popular currently?

How much of a difference does it actually make in terms of the all-inclusive price of installation (e.g. panels, inverters, mounting hardware, and labor)?

(Asking because I genuinely don't know, not because I have a specific answer in mind.)

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#49

Post by pfdietz »

hnaccount_rng wrote: post #41
Rebelgecko wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been intrigued by used solar panels for sale, seems like you can get an amazing price for ones that are only lightly degraded. Is there a downside, or do you just mean that it isn't popular currently?

In addition to my sibling comment: The cost of the panels is a rather small fraction of the total cost of a typical installation. Most of that cost ist labor, some regulatory requirements and the inverter. Whether you pay a factor of 2 for the panels or not typically doesn't matter. In other words: Reusing used panels will only ever be able to safe you a minuscule amount.

The low cost of the modules themselves has led to the suggestion of cost optimized DC-coupled PV systems being used to directly drive resistive heaters. The cost per unit of thermal energy in a cost optimized system moderate scale system (> residential, Low cost modules allow one to do away with things like optimally tilted modules and single axis tracking. The modules can also be tightly packed, reducing mounting and wiring costs.

Re: Can “second life” EV batteries work as grid-scale energy storage?

#50

Post by toast0 »

pinkgolem wrote: post #28
dukeofdoom wrote: post #25

Seems like the market is going the hybrid route. It's kind of easy to see why, best of both worlds. Some BYD hybrids have crazy ranges like 1500 km on a tank of gas. The more practical car is winning. They put in a much small battery in these for fast charge, and the daily commute range. And you have gas, for longer trips. Maybe smaller batteries would be better for grid-scale storage too. If they're lighter and easi…

i have heard that hybrid's have a maintanance problem? is not a concern, double the technologie in the same space?

Eh, my PHEV has a 2 year oil change interval, which is longer than my ICE only cars. You should probably bring in your EV every 2 years to get things looked at too.

The engine in a hybrid should live an easier life compared to an ICE. No extended idle, mostly running in the power band, etc. There are lots of different ways to setup the hybrid system, but typically, rather than a small stater motor, you have a larger motor/generator that also starts the engine; it's less likely to get worn out, because it's built for continuous use.

In my PHEV, it has a 'toyota synergy' style 'e-CVT' which eliminates gear selection and should be very low maintenance (although mine had to be replaced under a service bulletin due to bearing failure because of manufacturing error) again nicer than an ICE. But some hybrids have a more traditional transmission.

Certainly, you can do ICE only or EV only, but there's a lot of room to use the ICE for things it's good for, and the EV for things it's good for, and blend where there's overlap.

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