Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026 • Hacker News Board

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#41

Post by jcul » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:28 PM UTC

obblekk wrote: post #6

1yr timeline is ambitious if it means fully deployed. Clearly the right thing for Sweden and others to do. Also worrying that even 3yrs into the Russian invasion, bordering countries are urgently increasing their preparedness for future conflicts.

I believe most of those POS systems can operate in offline mode, in Europe at least. I have friends who work for large event organizers, and they have spoken about how if the system is offline the bars can continue to take payments, but there is a risk as a person's account may not have sufficient balance to make the charge when the system comes back online.

Most people here pay by card and I would say the vast majority use debit cards. A lot of people don't even have credit cards, unlike the US.

I'm no expert so may be wrong about some of this, and maybe huge events like these have these systems in place due to the risk of having to shut down bars etc. Many events are completely cash less these days.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#42

Post by thaumasiotes » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:30 PM UTC

samus wrote: post #23

ciupicri wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What cryptocurrencies work offline without Internet access to the ledger?

All of them? As long as eventually the connection is restored and the transaction can propagate over the network.

The point of the ledger is to prevent double-spending.

Offline payment specifically allows double-spending. If you have offline payment, you don't need a ledger at all; you can just use PGP.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#43

Post by throw219080123 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:31 PM UTC

mosdl wrote: post #37

throw219080123 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But if the system is implemented by a country this could be implemented using the law system and insurances. For example, when each transaction is done, both parties might keep a cryptographic proof which they are required to submit once they are online again. Failing to submit could result in a small fine (to encourage submission) and double spending which can then be detected could result in a large fine (or…

You don't need a blockchain for that, see how old credit cards worked without network access.

I didn't say you need a blockchain. I just said a cryptographic protocol (mostly offline and unrelated to blockchain) would help to automatically and quickly detect and proof fraud.

The offline credit card system does not proof fraud but just has insurance.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#44

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:32 PM UTC

ciupicri wrote: post #14

yieldcrv wrote: post #3

offline key signing and broadcasting later should be a simple thing although heavily misunderstood, this is built into cryptocurrencies since day 1 (many critics have long thought crypto requires power and internet access, many proponents also don't know otherwise) with card networks learning from competition and functionally being public-only keys, this should be even simpler to implement

What cryptocurrencies work offline without Internet access to the ledger?

They do, but the payee accepts risk.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#45

Post by 1oooqooq » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:33 PM UTC

Etheryte wrote: post #5

Some context might be useful here. I spent some time living Sweden not too long ago and Swedes practically don't use cash. It's usually not said out loud, but cash is often considered to be dirty and criminal, to the point that most don't have any at all. Digital payments are very convenient and deeply integrated, so long as you have a local ID which allows you use the local payment system Swish etc. This worked nice…

that's the excuse.

it's really visa lobbying to destroy the (somehow worse than visa) easy credit new players. they give credit like candy because being online and low value only it's easier to avoid (or swallow) fraud.

forcing their hand to accept offline sales mean they can't decide on the spot, and now those 5k credit lines which they only allow transactions for sub 100 purchases at a time will be wide open for offline fraud they can't detect, and which visa already know how to handle/sustain.

this will probably be lobbied elsewhere soon. i predict Netherlands is next.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#46

Post by mrtksn » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:34 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #18

mrtksn wrote: post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

Exactly like that most likely, I am old enough to remember those machines where credit cards left their mark on the receipt, that is why their numbers are higher than the card. Here, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_card_imprinter

Very interesting, never heard of these. Thank you.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#47

Post by g-mork » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:34 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

The EMV standard has long supported an offline transaction flow. AFAIK it was the default almost everywhere in Finland circa 2011, contactless there was almost always instantaneous. Digging into why that was compared to the invariable wait when using contactless in the UK revealed this flow.

The card has a variety of risk counters on it that allow it to securely decide whether an offline transaction can proceed, at least some of which are also exposed to the terminal which can have its own separate policy. I imagine internally the banks and payment gateways have a huge variety of internal related tuneables.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#48

Post by john01dav » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:34 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

On every flight I've been on recently, Internet was available to passengers. Surely a few KiB (I assume that this is what a credit or debit transaction requires) could go over this system?

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#49

Post by lostlogin » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:35 PM UTC

spullara wrote: post #7

It's a check, they have invented checks.

Are there people that like cheques? They are no longer a thing in New Zealand. It seems like something no-one would miss.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#50

Post by daneel_w » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:35 PM UTC

Etheryte wrote: post #5

Some context might be useful here. I spent some time living Sweden not too long ago and Swedes practically don't use cash. It's usually not said out loud, but cash is often considered to be dirty and criminal, to the point that most don't have any at all. Digital payments are very convenient and deeply integrated, so long as you have a local ID which allows you use the local payment system Swish etc. This worked nice…

> "It's usually not said out loud, but cash is often considered to be dirty and criminal ..."

Are you sure this isn't impression you've gotten from isolated reactions involving a small number of individuals, perhaps just a single individual? I can't relate to the sentiment at all, having lived here for just over three decades and experiencing the popularity shift from cash to debit card. I can, in fact, not recall a single time ever that someone has divulged the opinion that they consider cash "dirty and criminal".

More than anything else the Swede's favor of debit card is the convenience. Second to that I would say is the security of not immediately losing funds if you misplace the card or it being stolen - it feels less risky carrying a debit card, in particular if you're the type who prefers having more than a few "tens" on you in case you'd need or want to buy something.