Live data from Hacker News

Why most product planning is bad and what to do about it

blog.railway.com

41–49 of 49 posts

Re: Why most product planning is bad and what to do about it

#41

Am I getting it wrong? It sounds like they're still doing quarterly planning just with a different ritual? I had hoped they'd realise quarterly planning is a bad premise and asked themselves why they do it. If you have a mature product where you add incremental features, you don't need that plan because it's just an arbitrary block of pretty fungible work. If you're still looking for product market fit, that three mo…

Hello there! Author there, and surprised/delighted with the response. I don't think we had the issue with the cadence, the quarter is arbitrary, but we think it gives us the ability to just go heads down to focus. With that said, one thing we did and I don't why we did it was that we would "re-justify" why we would want to work on something every three months which isn't great. There is a world where if we had more e…

Deciding what to work on is critical as you say, every startup I see have at least 10x the things they want to do compared to the number of people.

But you're working in a pretty well known area. You don't really need planning for all 1000ish people as you could take this well known area and divide it into pieces that are largely independent. These pieces are either just table stakes where you need to be good enough but not innovate, or they're part of your vision for how to differentiate from other PaaS companies. You can budget accordingly and let these pieces do their own planning with their importance for the overall vision as context. (If you don't have a vision, your company is probably a mistake. Why are you even there?)

If there's an area where you don't need to innovate much, but you need to catch up, they might actually do a 3 month plan. If there's an area vital for your vision, they are probably trying new things, learning and re-targeting. Three months is far too long to plan for them on a tactical level, and probably too short to actually deliver on the vision.

You can certainly have a quarterly checkup or something to see that all parts are working from an upper management level, but the useful planning horizon varies by problem area, and they don't really need to plan in the same way.

Re: Why most product planning is bad and what to do about it

#42

Am I getting it wrong? It sounds like they're still doing quarterly planning just with a different ritual? I had hoped they'd realise quarterly planning is a bad premise and asked themselves why they do it. If you have a mature product where you add incremental features, you don't need that plan because it's just an arbitrary block of pretty fungible work. If you're still looking for product market fit, that three mo…

I think quarterly is used as a heartbeat across many teams. If you know your 15 adjacent teams are also quarter planning you can start asking for commitments. It makes things easier to figure out for higher ups too I imagine (never been a higher up though) Why not 6 weeks? Not sure. Gut feeling I like 3 months. Maybe 6 week sprints are good.

If your 3 month plan relies on other teams delivering on commitments, you've coupled your teams success to that other team.

I usually tell people they should try to plan based on what exists. Occasionally it's not possible and two or more teams need to cooperate, but planning 15 teams with lots of interconnections about hypothetical things is too hard and brittle. If you need it, your teams are probably split in the wrong way.

Re: Why most product planning is bad and what to do about it

#43

Sounds Like you rediscovered the “opportunity solution tree” (Teresa Torres) and were skipping a crucial step in product management / UX which is product discovery. I would suggest not to generalize your learnings by saying “why most product planning is bad…” and rather use a more humble title “why our product planning was bad and what we did about it”.

This doesn’t sound very much like like OST beyond the general concept of caring about problems to me

Re: Why most product planning is bad and what to do about it

#45

Am I getting it wrong? It sounds like they're still doing quarterly planning just with a different ritual? I had hoped they'd realise quarterly planning is a bad premise and asked themselves why they do it. If you have a mature product where you add incremental features, you don't need that plan because it's just an arbitrary block of pretty fungible work. If you're still looking for product market fit, that three mo…

> you don't need that plan because it's just an arbitrary block of pretty fungible work

This is an over-generalization. If you are a team of 5 selling a B2C product, sure.

But for B2B you tend to need to commit to a roadmap eventually, hence planning.

And for bigger orgs with multiple teams, if you want to commit to x-team initiatives then longer timeframes can help with coordination. (Ie- we want to deliver X in Q4, therefore A and B should be done in Oct, so that C can begin in Nov)

Re: Why most product planning is bad and what to do about it

#46
post #45

Am I getting it wrong? It sounds like they're still doing quarterly planning just with a different ritual? I had hoped they'd realise quarterly planning is a bad premise and asked themselves why they do it. If you have a mature product where you add incremental features, you don't need that plan because it's just an arbitrary block of pretty fungible work. If you're still looking for product market fit, that three mo…

> you don't need that plan because it's just an arbitrary block of pretty fungible work This is an over-generalization. If you are a team of 5 selling a B2C product, sure. But for B2B you tend to need to commit to a roadmap eventually, hence planning. And for bigger orgs with multiple teams, if you want to commit to x-team initiatives then longer timeframes can help with coordination. (Ie- we want to deliver X in Q4,…

Does the roadmap actually help in the B2B case though? In many companies it's just a way to disappoint the customer a bit now (because the thing they want isn't first on the roadmap) and a bit more later (because the roadmap failed).

X-team initiatives do need planning and coordination sometimes, but if you have a lot of x-team initiatives, your teams are probably set up wrong. If you fix that you can plan less.

Re: Why most product planning is bad and what to do about it

#47
post #37

This sounds like PI Planning. Fwiw, I have become a huge fan of the approach from ShapeUp with 6 week cycles followed by a 2 week cool down.

6 weeks is a long time. Is the benefit that you spend more time writing code rather than being in meetings?

It’s only long compared to sprints. With standard PI planning you’re looking at 8-12 weeks and with the authors post above they are going by quarters. 6 is short by comparison.

The idea is that there are numerous pieces of work that your team will do which take longer than 2 weeks and you’re better off planning on a longer window so that you can find the best way to execute with clearer scope. This is the approach of all of the longer timelines and it’s much more effective in my experience.

The 6 week approach advocated by ShapeUp tries to find a balance from years of trial and error that balances “enough time” with “short enough that there’s still a sense of urgency”.

The other hard rule for this system is one that I’m a huge believer in. Namely, “if you are doing something that’s too big for 2-3 people to ship something in 6 weeks it’s too big and you need to trim it.”

It doesn’t say “complete” it says “ship something”. Thats key. There will always be work that takes more than 6 weeks, but you should always be able to find a way to slice it into smaller pieces that can be shipped. There are subtle things happening under the hood of this simple dynamic that force a lot of good practices from everyone involved too.

Re: Why most product planning is bad and what to do about it

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think quarterly is used as a heartbeat across many teams. If you know your 15 adjacent teams are also quarter planning you can start asking for commitments. It makes things easier to figure out for higher ups too I imagine (never been a higher up though) Why not 6 weeks? Not sure. Gut feeling I like 3 months. Maybe 6 week sprints are good.

If your 3 month plan relies on other teams delivering on commitments, you've coupled your teams success to that other team. I usually tell people they should try to plan based on what exists. Occasionally it's not possible and two or more teams need to cooperate, but planning 15 teams with lots of interconnections about hypothetical things is too hard and brittle. If you need it, your teams are probably split in the…

Yes indeed. I always look for ways to decouple things for this reason even if that decoupling creates a bit more work.

Re: Why most product planning is bad and what to do about it

#49
post #7

"Focus on problems, not solutions" is pretty standard practice. Seems like author cherry picks some abstract concept of "bigco" and their process-driven planning. I guess. Came here to say, I don't deny those anecdotes, but just as many companies can and do intuit "what problem are we solving?" and then come up with some potential solutions in meetings across stakeholders. That's called planning. Time-box it and move…

> "Focus on problems, not solutions" is pretty standard practice.

You'd be surprised. Especially as you go further from tech, or tech minded companies. Dont get me started on more regulated stuff in manufacturing. Ive met so many value stream managers, site managers and even directors who simply cannot comprehend how fancy system X wont solve everything

Post reply on HN