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Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

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Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#41

Post by gmueckl »

instagraham wrote: post #37

The immutability of documentation tech matters more in a world with AI. The cameras used to document "news" will need to be watermarked, fingerprinted and authenticated, like what Canon and Nikon are already doing (and which AFP has already adopted). It may have seemed gimmicky at first, but in a year or two, you'll probably only be able to trust visuals from companies that do this (wire agencies like AFP, AP and Reu…

On the other hand, this requires locked down devices running trusted apps. Otherwise, such a badge won't have any meaning.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#42

Post by matsemann »

Night_Thastus wrote: post #7

"An email is your copy, and the sender can’t revise it later." Sort of. They can't change plain text, but modern emails often include vast swaths of remote content. When you open the message, it retrieves the relevant assets directly from whoever sent the email. That remote content is not permanently stored . It's cached for a bit and will not be re-used if the email is opened months or years later. If those assets d…

Gmail keeps editing mails. They have a concept of "dynamic emails" people can send now. Like if you get a mail notification about something in Docs, they will keep updating the mail in your inbox together with modified / added comments in the document.

Absolutely bonkers.

"Because of the dynamic nature of AMP messages, the content displayed in Gmail messages can change as time passes." https://support.google.com/a/answer/9709409?hl=en

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#43

Post by jacquesm »

matsemann wrote: post #42
Night_Thastus wrote: post #7

"An email is your copy, and the sender can’t revise it later." Sort of. They can't change plain text, but modern emails often include vast swaths of remote content. When you open the message, it retrieves the relevant assets directly from whoever sent the email. That remote content is not permanently stored . It's cached for a bit and will not be re-used if the email is opened months or years later. If those assets d…

Gmail keeps editing mails. They have a concept of "dynamic emails" people can send now. Like if you get a mail notification about something in Docs, they will keep updating the mail in your inbox together with modified / added comments in the document. Absolutely bonkers. "Because of the dynamic nature of AMP messages, the content displayed in Gmail messages can change as time passes." https://support.google.com/a/an…

Great for audits. And gmail ate my homework...

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#44

Post by vlovich123 »

gmueckl wrote: post #41
instagraham wrote: post #37

The immutability of documentation tech matters more in a world with AI. The cameras used to document "news" will need to be watermarked, fingerprinted and authenticated, like what Canon and Nikon are already doing (and which AFP has already adopted). It may have seemed gimmicky at first, but in a year or two, you'll probably only be able to trust visuals from companies that do this (wire agencies like AFP, AP and Reu…

On the other hand, this requires locked down devices running trusted apps. Otherwise, such a badge won't have any meaning.

I think it’s already irrelevant: cryptographic proofs of video evidence is difficult to communicate to audiences while watermarks will be learned by AI as trusted and injected into AI videos anyway. Also, in between the lens and your eyeball is usually a pipeline of editing applied anyway so either the cryptographic signature ends up with every layer signing the modifications applied + the previous layer or you stack watermarks. But ultimately the original problem is how to communicate the cryptographic chain validity.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#45

Post by drnick1 »

gmueckl wrote: post #41
instagraham wrote: post #37

The immutability of documentation tech matters more in a world with AI. The cameras used to document "news" will need to be watermarked, fingerprinted and authenticated, like what Canon and Nikon are already doing (and which AFP has already adopted). It may have seemed gimmicky at first, but in a year or two, you'll probably only be able to trust visuals from companies that do this (wire agencies like AFP, AP and Reu…

On the other hand, this requires locked down devices running trusted apps. Otherwise, such a badge won't have any meaning.

> locked down devices running trusted apps

This is a bigger threat than phony AI videos.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#46

Post by JambalayaJimbo »

vlovich123 wrote: post #44
gmueckl wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, this requires locked down devices running trusted apps. Otherwise, such a badge won't have any meaning.

I think it’s already irrelevant: cryptographic proofs of video evidence is difficult to communicate to audiences while watermarks will be learned by AI as trusted and injected into AI videos anyway. Also, in between the lens and your eyeball is usually a pipeline of editing applied anyway so either the cryptographic signature ends up with every layer signing the modifications applied + the previous layer or you stack…

Communication is a different story, do we know whether it’s possible in the first place? And that requires device integrity.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#47

Post by drnick1 »

dlcarrier wrote: post #34
blibble wrote: post #2

> The world is changing, and we need to adapt and understand it. fastmail: read my lips: I pay you because you offer a traditional email service if you add a single AI feature I will return to self hosting

Self hosting? I can't even visit simple static web pages without Cloudflare blocking me because my web browser isn't sufficiently trackable. There's no way they're letting self-hosted email messages get through.

This is a myth. I self-host email and don't have deliverability issues. What matters is domain age, IP, and compliance with DKIM/DMARC.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#48

Post by toasterlovin »

instagraham wrote: post #37

The immutability of documentation tech matters more in a world with AI. The cameras used to document "news" will need to be watermarked, fingerprinted and authenticated, like what Canon and Nikon are already doing (and which AFP has already adopted). It may have seemed gimmicky at first, but in a year or two, you'll probably only be able to trust visuals from companies that do this (wire agencies like AFP, AP and Reu…

Interestingly, I think Apple has inadvertently positioned themselves very well to be able to authenticate various activity as being done by an actual human. What if anything they decide to do with that capability remains to be seen.

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#49

Post by Flere-Imsaho »

dlcarrier wrote: post #34
blibble wrote: post #2

> The world is changing, and we need to adapt and understand it. fastmail: read my lips: I pay you because you offer a traditional email service if you add a single AI feature I will return to self hosting

Self hosting? I can't even visit simple static web pages without Cloudflare blocking me because my web browser isn't sufficiently trackable. There's no way they're letting self-hosted email messages get through.

Could you expand on this?

I use everything I can to block trackers, spy ware, etc and have never been "Cloudflare blocked".

Re: Email immutability matters more in a world with AI

#50

Post by drnick1 »

Email has never been immutable. Email that you receive on your own server can be trivially altered, it's just a plain text file.

In fact until recently email was sent and received in the clear like a postcard, the whole system wasn't designed to be secure or secret in any way.

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