Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not moral to break the law in the furtherance of fraud. That’s the point.
But if the fraud secures the livelyhood of $bignum children and they would starve without their parents committing that fraud?
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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did
41–50 of 369 posts
Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did
#42Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.
Yes, the Hippocratic Oath works quite well even if it has no legal underpinnings, so why not use the same idea for developers? Indeed ACM and IEEE could draft one.
Are you kidding?
Misconduct among doctors is rampant, special highlight on dentists:
Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did
#43Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.
The code of ethics would need to be absolute, enforceable, unambiguous (without lawyers to interpret), and universal to really eliminate these activities.
Software engineering could become a real profession with licensing like mechanical, electrical, chemical, civil, and other engineering professions. If you do something unethical, you could be sued for malpractice and lose your license to practice.
The code of ethics for Professional Engineers works even though it isn’t any of the things you say are necessary.
Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would argue that you have a moral and ethical responsibility to say no when your manager asks you to do something illegal, even if it does cost you your job. The law is the law, and there is no excuse for breaking it. Your manager is certainly culpable, but if you act against the law, you are culpable as well. The exception is if you fear literal physical violence against you or others, or are being blackmailed or…
> I would argue that you have a moral and ethical responsibility to say no when your manager asks you to do something illegal, even if it does cost you your job. When your access to food, housing, heating and healthcare for your family are dependent on your income, you may find yourself facing very difficult decisions. Most parents will risk whatever legal ramifications to care for their kids and that's inherent mora…
At least in the case of engineers, we're talking about highly compensated people. You should have a solid emergency fund put together within a few months of starting your career. From there, it's on you to not put yourself into an economically precarious position. People who are making multiples of the median household don't have food/shelter as an excuse.
Not that it's much of an excuse for everyone else either, but with people in the professional-managerial class it's absurd.
Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And crucially there is never some black and white issue. The three example given are quite black and white ...
Here are a few more examples: https://leanpub.com/unethical-software-engineering/ Covert Surveillance EMAIL PIXEL INJECTOR STEALTHY INPUT LOGGER Monetization at all costs AGGRESSIVE ADVERTISER AD BLOCKER DETECTOR PAY TO WIN ADDICTION PEDDLER ARTIFICIAL SCARCITY HOARDER DRM RUG PULLER OBSOLESCENCE PLANNER Digital Fraud CYBERSQUATTER SNEAKY TERMS DEGRADER INTEROPERABILITY BREAKER Ranking Manipulation FAKE REVIEW GENERA…
You should probably disclose this is your own book you're advertising.
Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did
#46> Frank was a student loan startup founded by Charlie Javice in 2016. In 2019, Javice was featured on the Forbes “30 under 30” There was a joke going around Twitter about "30 under 30 doing 30 to life", because the startups involved were getting more and more outlandish to the extent that bystanders suspected that fraud was going on. Became a Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/06/forbes-3…
Do any other countries have an equivalent to the UK's "super injunction"? This is where a court order says you're not allowed to talk about the court order itself nevermind the topic covered by the order.
Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, the Hippocratic Oath works quite well even if it has no legal underpinnings, so why not use the same idea for developers? Indeed ACM and IEEE could draft one.
It only works because doctors have a self-governing body of other doctors as an oversight, usually called a chamber, board, Kammer, etc. This chamber is responsible for licensing doctors to perform medicine and has the power to withdraw that license upon violations of the Hippocratic Oath, other ethical violations and other professional misconduct or malpractice. Unless you want this kind of arrangement for developer…
not only, in most countries operating as a physician requires a license to operate. It can be revoked if the professional violates the terms of the license.
If software had such a thing, it would be possible to achieve something similar. It is not the oath per se that keeps doctors on the righteous path, it is just as much the treath of not loosing your job - but having your professional status revoked (i.e. permamently loosing the ability to work).
On the other hand, reviewing code every now and then, it would be good if you could revoke programming privileges for ever for certain individuals.
Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did
#48> Frank was a student loan startup founded by Charlie Javice in 2016. In 2019, Javice was featured on the Forbes “30 under 30” There was a joke going around Twitter about "30 under 30 doing 30 to life", because the startups involved were getting more and more outlandish to the extent that bystanders suspected that fraud was going on. Became a Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/06/forbes-3…
Do any other countries have an equivalent to the UK's "super injunction"? This is where a court order says you're not allowed to talk about the court order itself nevermind the topic covered by the order.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary
That's probably a good starting point for a dive into that question.
Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did
#49I'm quite firmly on the side of "don't do bad stuff", even way before crossing the line to wondering how you'd look in the proverbial orange jumpsuit. But two things about this are often under-discussed IMO. Firstly, personal costs can be high even before full-blown whistleblowing, the struggles of which are well reported. The best case is usually that you're looking for a new job. It is clear to me that that's bette…
> not everyone always has good alternatives, enough financial safety, and no major economic responsibilities to cover at home. I recommend planning for this (if you can). Set money aside sufficient to cover your costs until you can get another job so that you can quit at any time. Negotiate your deals so that you don't end up with substantial golden handcuffs (i.e. cash > equity, especially with long vesting periods)…
whole-heartedly seconded, it helps with anything from "they want me to do something really bad" all the way to "I'm really not feeling it anymore here"
Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did
#50> Frank was a student loan startup founded by Charlie Javice in 2016. In 2019, Javice was featured on the Forbes “30 under 30” There was a joke going around Twitter about "30 under 30 doing 30 to life", because the startups involved were getting more and more outlandish to the extent that bystanders suspected that fraud was going on. Became a Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/06/forbes-3…
> UK libel law routinely covers up all sorts of things which the public would benefit from having revealed, simply by the threat of an expensive lawsuit. It makes investigative journalism really uneconomic.
No. The deference people have to the law as some sort of all knowing all powerful magic spell that can be cast to force silence at any time is to blame. Libel is publishing something you know to be untrue. The truth cannot be libel.
If you want to speak the truth, if you want to act in service of the greater good, you must take the risk that you will attract attention from people who do not want you to speak the truth. And those people may use whatever power they have to suppress you, whether that's judicial or extrajudicial. That's not caused by any specific legal system, it's how people behave.
Investigative journalism is uneconomic the world over. The U.K. has some of the best investigative journalism in the world. The U.K. legal system is far from perfect, but it is wrong to say that in this case, the U.K.'s libel laws (for all their flaws) kept this information secret.
The irony is that the greatest suppressor of the truth is comments like yours which scare people into silence about the truth.