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Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

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Re: Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

#41
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before it meant the group that even sometimes risked their life for the children of everyone in the tribe. I think you're discounting natural human altruism, which is well studied.

The tribe was bound by blood and reciprocal ties. This works at small scales, which is the context we evolved in. This is why in a village where everyone knows each other people help each other but in a holiday resort locals screw tourists.

Religions like Christianity are the natural development at global scale for that. We're losing that scaling in altruism now, but it doesn't have to be this way.

Re: Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

#42
post #12

This paper perfectly demonstrates two HR axioms I have observed in a 20 year tech journey from IC system engineer to retired unicorn CTO: 1. Total compensation varies obscenely within the organization. It correlates moderately with intelligence and in no way with effort. Some of the most useless articles you work with make the most money. 2. Leadership really, really, really does not want peers sharing compensation i…

A lot of big companies outside of tech already do have semi-transparent pay structures, plus or minus some wiggle room within pay bands.

My wife works for a very large company that you've heard of. Everyone is assigned a pay band that corresponds to their title. Everyone can go on to the portal and see approximately how much someone else earns (within a narrow range) based on their level and geographical location.

It hasn't brought compensation up. If anything, it has kept it down. My wife was objectively underpaid for a while and on the verge of leaving, but HR wouldn't allow higher pay because it didn't fit the band. They pointed to her peers and showed that they were earning the same amount. Eventually she did an end-run around it by transferring divisions and getting promoted to another level, but it would have been so much easier for everyone if her boss could have just given her a raise even though it violated the pay band.

I have friends who work for the local government including the state run university. There is a website where anyone can go search for their name and see exactly how much they were paid per year, down to the penny. Having browsed the website I can say it has not resulted in higher compensation, as they're all paid surprisingly little.

Re: Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

#43

My two cents, I believe there is an nuance worth deliniating, specifically differentiating between being elite "in status" vs being elite "in nature." Painting broad strokes here for the sake of this post (so take with a grain of salt)... Many people born into or groomed for an elite status (via inherited wealth, rich families, strong support systems, etc) are rationally self preservationists. They were born on third…

These are good insights. I think it is perhaps also worth noting that even the individuals who succeed on their own merit do so with a lot of luck, and it may not always be obvious to them the luck was there.

Milton Hershey is known for his candy company. Somewhat less known is the fact that his successful candy company was his fourth; his three previous bankrupted (mostly due to fluctuations in prices moving candy from tenable to untenable as a business) and he'd burned through so much of the family fortune pursuing them that his relatives cut him off from further loans. His father before him had liquidated his own piece of the family fortune speculating on opportunities. It could easily have been the case that those speculations might have paid off, which would have made Hershey the son elite category 1 (in status); similarly, if Hershey hadn't found one last source of investment money from a former employee, his candy-making aspirations would have ended when the family cut him off and we wouldn't know his story at all.

The system of stories we tell ourselves highlights the merit and downplays the luck; we don't remember the failure cases, including, often, the failures that predated the success. A lot of people who lacked support, didn't know there was a system to be leveraged, and grinded as far as they could before something critical broke are out there; they just don't get to give TED talks on what complete failure tastes like. Nobody gets to hear the lecture from Henry Hershey on "I mortgaged my family's future on opportunities that, had they paid off, would have made my son and wife wealthy and comfortable for the rest of their days... But none of them paid off and it was all ultimately objectively wasted effort, energy that would have been better spent tending a modest homestead and making it thrive in a small but sustainable way."

Re: Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the social sciences would have you believe that if you are white and/or male, that you are automatically in the former category even if you had to do all of those things mentioned by those in the later category.

Nah, social sciences don't say that. It's a common misconception - borne out of people who don't want to engage with what they're actually saying, or from engaging with people who don't know what social sciences actually say. All they really say is some people have an advantage. It doesn't mean they have it easy. We get advantages from all parts of life, and refusing to engage with recognizing them is a decision, but…

This insight is key.

I've had challenges in my life. At no time have I ever lived somewhere for more than two weeks with no running water, because I was born American and sufficiently affluent and lucky to be both in towns with municipal water and in buildings connected to that water. So I get to completely cross off "Has clean running water all the time" from my list of needs and wants, and not everyone does.

... and I gotta say, potential employers like you a lot better when you've had a shower that morning.

Re: Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

#45
post #12

This paper perfectly demonstrates two HR axioms I have observed in a 20 year tech journey from IC system engineer to retired unicorn CTO: 1. Total compensation varies obscenely within the organization. It correlates moderately with intelligence and in no way with effort. Some of the most useless articles you work with make the most money. 2. Leadership really, really, really does not want peers sharing compensation i…

There's a now deleted comment that touched upon some of the issues on making compensation information public; I have very similar views as above so I'll write my own:

1. There are skillsets/capabilities that the organization finds difficult to get on the market, as well as brings disproportionate profits to the organization. For example, a database company may need to hire two software engineers, one writing CRUD apps or infrastructure automation, and the other one for distributed systems implementation. In such a setting, while both people's titles may say "software engineer", the reality is that one is paid much higher than the other, both because the database is the bread and butter for that company, while the CRUD/infrastructure thing may be a very small part used by an internal team or by a few customers.

2. People usually like to believe that they're at least better than average and bring the same level of contributions to the team. This is most definitely not the case, and an engineering manager, VP, sales manager who simply appears to talk to people all day long may actually have important contributions such as overseeing key projects, talking to customers etc. which may be the thing that the company needs to lock that large sale or prevent customer attrition, or whatever the case may be.

People will often jump to favoritism or bias or another explanation, and in some cases, they absolutely do happen. But that is not the only explanation, and without data to distinguish between the two, people will gravitate towards the uncharitable interpretation, which allows them to paint themselves in the most positive light.

Re: Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CS theory is indeed closer to mathematics. But other areas--database systems, computer architecture, networking, user interface design etc., is in fact evaluated via experiments, which is what makes it "science". For example, if you propose some new technique to make databases faster (e.g. "store tuples column-wise instead of row-wise"), you'll implement it and run various workloads with and without the technique ena…

I believe that falls under what the OP called engineering, which is fair as in engineering one often has to run experiments to determine if what one thinks will work in the particular case actually works.

No, it's a whole scientific field, with experiments, lit review, publications, peer review and everything.

The engineering artifact is just a by-product. More often than not, the code is thrown away or never used again, once the experiments have been run and the paper has been published.

Re: Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the social sciences would have you believe that if you are white and/or male, that you are automatically in the former category even if you had to do all of those things mentioned by those in the later category.

Nah, social sciences don't say that. It's a common misconception - borne out of people who don't want to engage with what they're actually saying, or from engaging with people who don't know what social sciences actually say. All they really say is some people have an advantage. It doesn't mean they have it easy. We get advantages from all parts of life, and refusing to engage with recognizing them is a decision, but…

First off fair and I even agree, but then you sort of concede my point anyway with "it's a common misconception".

A commonly-held belief is that that statement is true and we deal with all of the follow-on effects of that belief as a result.

Re: Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

#48
post #12

This paper perfectly demonstrates two HR axioms I have observed in a 20 year tech journey from IC system engineer to retired unicorn CTO: 1. Total compensation varies obscenely within the organization. It correlates moderately with intelligence and in no way with effort. Some of the most useless articles you work with make the most money. 2. Leadership really, really, really does not want peers sharing compensation i…

A lot of big companies outside of tech already do have semi-transparent pay structures, plus or minus some wiggle room within pay bands. My wife works for a very large company that you've heard of. Everyone is assigned a pay band that corresponds to their title. Everyone can go on to the portal and see approximately how much someone else earns (within a narrow range) based on their level and geographical location. It…

Yes but in the large companies I’ve worked for (IBM, for example), equity grants exist outside the band structure and are negotiated on a case by case basis.

You can get life changing amounts of money by being offered a strategic project and asking for a huge option grant as a bonus if you deliver.

Re: Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

#49

"On average across worker pairs, spectators implemented a Gini coefficient of 0.56 and redistributed $1.30 of the winner’s earnings to the loser. " "In the efficiency cost treatment, the winner was determined by a coin flip and redistribution incurs an “adjustment cost” that reduces the total earnings available to participants. For every $1.00 reduction in the winner’s earnings, the loser’s earnings increase by only…

I imagine that how the students behaved and what "seems fair" is heavily biased by the cultural context.

I agree that 22% redistribution seems about fair, but I'm biased by a lifetime of rates of taxation.

Something I'm very curious about is what should we be trying to optimize for (economic growth, sense of well-being, energy output, raising the economic floor, etc.?) and then what gini coefficient optimally produces that outcome.

I understand it's outside the scope of this study, but my bias is my curiosity for what should we be aiming at and what principles will optimally produce the result, so then at least we know in theory what we should be trying to do.

Re: Are elites meritocratic and efficiency-seeking? Evidence from MBA students

#50
post #12

This paper perfectly demonstrates two HR axioms I have observed in a 20 year tech journey from IC system engineer to retired unicorn CTO: 1. Total compensation varies obscenely within the organization. It correlates moderately with intelligence and in no way with effort. Some of the most useless articles you work with make the most money. 2. Leadership really, really, really does not want peers sharing compensation i…

How enforceable is a condition like that?

Legally enforceable? I have no idea. But if the CEO loses trust in you there’s no way to come back from that, hence the dark power of secrecy.
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