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Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

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Re: Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

#41

Post by hagbard_c »

Amezarak wrote: post #29
CaptainOfCoit wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet a lot of young people somehow think they were good guys. Reality is really context dependent, and with lots of nuance. Obviously being anti-fascist and helped out taking down the Nazis makes you more of a "good guy" than "bad guy" for that specific moment, but obviously that doesn't mean the USSR or Russia is exclusively the "good guys" always, which goes the same for every country out there. Where are you…

The USSR was one of the most authoritarian regimes in world history. They killed millions of people. They invaded Poland together with the Nazis, which was the start of WWII. I have no idea what was bad about the fascists that wasn't equally true of the Soviets - the underlying systems of thought and actions were essentially the same. There is no sense in which I can see the Soviets were the "good guys." They were si…

I'd like to hear from the individuals who downvoted this post why they did so as it seems to be factually correct.

Re: Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

#42

Post by Hikikomori »

Amezarak wrote: post #29
CaptainOfCoit wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet a lot of young people somehow think they were good guys. Reality is really context dependent, and with lots of nuance. Obviously being anti-fascist and helped out taking down the Nazis makes you more of a "good guy" than "bad guy" for that specific moment, but obviously that doesn't mean the USSR or Russia is exclusively the "good guys" always, which goes the same for every country out there. Where are you…

The USSR was one of the most authoritarian regimes in world history. They killed millions of people. They invaded Poland together with the Nazis, which was the start of WWII. I have no idea what was bad about the fascists that wasn't equally true of the Soviets - the underlying systems of thought and actions were essentially the same. There is no sense in which I can see the Soviets were the "good guys." They were si…

>The USSR was one of the most authoritarian regimes in world history. They killed millions of people. They invaded Poland together with the Nazis, which was the start of WWII.

Trumps America soon: hold my beer

Re: Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

#43

Post by kalberg6429 »

FridayoLeary wrote: post #34
jedimind wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is truly incredible to see those Zionist terrorist's pragmatic calculation rebranded as "moral fortitude." Begin avoided a civil war because he knew his extremist ideology would eventually conquer the state from within, and he was proven right. The idea that violence for him and Shamir was just a "means to an end" that stopped in 1948 is a complete fantasy. They simply nationalized their terrorism. Begin didn't fi…

Who are they a victim of exactly? Hamas can't be a victim when they are still actively holding onto hostages and started this whole war. You can say it's the average gazan, so long as they don't support Hamas. Which makes them a victim of both Israel and Hamas which is a fair claim, but they have been horribly let down by their leaders while Israel hasn't, which was kind of my point?

[flagged]

Re: Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

#44

Post by victorbjorklund »

CaptainOfCoit wrote: post #11
GardenLetter27 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crazy how awful the Russians were - same with Josef Bryks - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Bryks And yet a lot of young people somehow think they were good guys.

> And yet a lot of young people somehow think they were good guys. Reality is really context dependent, and with lots of nuance. Obviously being anti-fascist and helped out taking down the Nazis makes you more of a "good guy" than "bad guy" for that specific moment, but obviously that doesn't mean the USSR or Russia is exclusively the "good guys" always, which goes the same for every country out there. Where are you…

Russians were allies with nazi Germany at the start of the war. They did not have any problem with nazi Germany when they invaded Poland together. Only later did they hate Germany because the Germans betrayed them. To this day Russians don't have a problem with facism (Russia is facist). They only have a problem with the nazis because they betrayed Russia.

Re: Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

#45

Post by kalberg6429 »

breppp wrote: post #32
jedimind wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are deliberately playing a semantic game with the word "disappear" because you know the truth is damning. The Irgun didn't "vanish." Its violent, expansionist and terrorist ideology succeeded. It then took over the "state", making the old brand name redundant. Why would Menachem Begin need a private terrorist gang when he could one day command the entire military to achieve his goals? And your argument about tact…

You seem to somehow say I am misconstruing the word disappear, but everyone that was part of the Etzel/Lehi is either dead or dying. The organization itself does not exist for so many decades in no meaningful way, that I really feel I am repeating myself. Your arguments have been reduced to changing the Irgun to some metaphor or what you don't like about Israel actions. This doesn't change the fact that Israel had ha…

You are missing the point on purpose because the reality is indefensible. You talk about dead bodies because you can't talk about the ideology that outlived them.

That's not a "metaphor", but a direct and documented political bloodline. The Irgun's violent, expansionist and terrorist ideology was channeled directly into the Herut party[0], which became the Likud party, which put the Irgun's commander, Menachem Begin, in the Prime Minister's office. The Dahiya Doctrine isn't a metaphor, but Irgun's philosophy of collective punishment aka terrorism written down as official state policy.

And let's put down this already debunked lie you keep repeating. Israel did not "handle" its terrorist problem. It institutionalized it. It promoted it. It didn't have a version of Altalena to crush its extremists. It had an Altalena to consolidate power, and then it put the terrorist leader of the Altalena in charge of the entire "state". You didn't solve your terrorism problem. You made terrorism your state policy, which now manifested itself in the inevitable conclusion of Genocide.

[0] The same Herut party btw about whom Einstein said: "a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties." - https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2014-12-04/ty-article/.premiu...

Re: Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

#46

Post by rdtsc »

breppp wrote: post #13
pbiggar wrote: post #9

The Stern gang, who killed him, became the IDF (along with the Haganah and the Irgun). These groups performed the ethnic cleansing of Palestine that allowed Israel to be built on Palestinian land (commonly known as the Nakba). > One of the chief organisers of the assassination was Yitzhak Shamir, who became Israel’s prime minister in 1984. Exactly.

The Irgun was forcibly integrated into the IDF, claiming dead and almost triggering a civil war. Something the Palestinians could never muster, and one of the reasons they are still in this position, stateless under the control of Hamas

> The Irgun was forcibly integrated into the IDF, claiming dead and almost triggering a civil war.

So that means the terrorists, especially the leaders, were tried and punished for their crimes?

Re: Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

#47

Post by breppp »

kalberg6429 wrote: post #43
FridayoLeary wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are they a victim of exactly? Hamas can't be a victim when they are still actively holding onto hostages and started this whole war. You can say it's the average gazan, so long as they don't support Hamas. Which makes them a victim of both Israel and Hamas which is a fair claim, but they have been horribly let down by their leaders while Israel hasn't, which was kind of my point?

[flagged]

> It started with the Nakba

I would suggest you read about the Hebron 1929 massacre which ethnically cleansed the largely non-zionist Hebron population

Re: Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

#48

Post by breppp »

kalberg6429 wrote: post #45
breppp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to somehow say I am misconstruing the word disappear, but everyone that was part of the Etzel/Lehi is either dead or dying. The organization itself does not exist for so many decades in no meaningful way, that I really feel I am repeating myself. Your arguments have been reduced to changing the Irgun to some metaphor or what you don't like about Israel actions. This doesn't change the fact that Israel had ha…

You are missing the point on purpose because the reality is indefensible. You talk about dead bodies because you can't talk about the ideology that outlived them. That's not a "metaphor", but a direct and documented political bloodline. The Irgun's violent, expansionist and terrorist ideology was channeled directly into the Herut party[0], which became the Likud party, which put the Irgun's commander, Menachem Begin,…

[flagged]

Re: Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

#49

Post by [deleted] »

breppp wrote: post #40
kalberg6429 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The expected Zionist modus operandi, whitewash Zionist crimes, then blame the victim for responding. Your "socialist" argument is a weak attempt to hide behind a political label. It doesn't matter what they called themselves. The "socialist"[1] Haganah and Palmach were the main engines of the Nakba. The distinction between them and the Irgun was a public relations strategy, a "good cop, bad cop" routine for the same…

I am merely stating a fact, the poster above tried to say that the Irgun had popular support, that is false. The population was socialist, that is a fact While your representation of what happened in Altalena is so overly post-colonialist it almost reads like satire. You keep failing to address my original argument, while trying to show any keyword I write is some part of a post-colonial masterplan straight out of th…

[deleted]

Re: Count Folke Bernadotte: Sweden's Servant of Peace (2010)

#50

Post by yodafx »

breppp wrote: post #40
kalberg6429 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The expected Zionist modus operandi, whitewash Zionist crimes, then blame the victim for responding. Your "socialist" argument is a weak attempt to hide behind a political label. It doesn't matter what they called themselves. The "socialist"[1] Haganah and Palmach were the main engines of the Nakba. The distinction between them and the Irgun was a public relations strategy, a "good cop, bad cop" routine for the same…

I am merely stating a fact, the poster above tried to say that the Irgun had popular support, that is false. The population was socialist, that is a fact While your representation of what happened in Altalena is so overly post-colonialist it almost reads like satire. You keep failing to address my original argument, while trying to show any keyword I write is some part of a post-colonial masterplan straight out of th…

You're trying to change the subject to a 1948 popularity contest because you can't refute the fact that the Irgun's extremist terrorist ideology won and became Israel's "state" policy. You resort to mocking the analysis with academic jargon because you're terrified of admitting that you're defending a colonial project that is currently in its final phase of exterminating the natives it couldn't get rid of in 1948.

Your last question is an amusing piece of Zionist projection. "Don't you think Palestinians have a terrorist organization problem?" - That's rich, coming from an apologist of a colonial project founded by terrorists, led by terrorists, and whose state terrorism has culminated in genocide. The very group you're pointing at was propped up with cash by your own Prime Minister, Netanyahu, as a deliberate strategy to divide Palestinians. https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-...

The core problem Palestinians have is a Zionist occupation problem. What they also have is an internationally recognized right to armed resistance against a foreign military occupier. Zionism, from the King David Hotel to the Dahiya Doctrine, is the one with the "terrorist problem." You just call it your "state" https://web.archive.org/web/20231029055310/ojp.gov/ncjrs/vir...

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