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The madness of SaaS chargebacks

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Re: The madness of SaaS chargebacks

#41
Perhaps this is a question you should be asking yourself. Is your cancellation system working? There was a billing session created the day after the initial charge, are you sure there wasn't an attempt to cancel the that the system failed to register and log due to an error? If I try to cancel and it doesn't work, I'm not gonna waste time trying to figure out how to work around it or filing a bug report. I'm gonna go straight to the charge back.

Is your cancellation mechanism consumer friendly? You don't do proration when people cancel and say you only "meet them halfway" when they go through the effort of requesting a refund in response to this user hostile policy.

There are a lot of very user unfriendly policies and implementations. Sometimes companies that legitimately try to do the right thing get caught in the blowback, but more commonly, companies aren't as user friendly as they like to pretend and have adopted at least some of the pervasive dark patterns.

Re: The madness of SaaS chargebacks

#42
post #39
post #16

> What I don’t understand is why some people can’t just reach out and request it — instead of going straight to a chargeback. Customers don't want to "reach out" if it means hunting deep in their account settings to find the cancel button, or calling a number which may or may not lead them through an endless phone tree to waste 5 minutes talking with someone on the retention team reading from a script. People don't r…

> Customers don't want to {blah blah blah} If this is the way it works and the result are chargebacks it just means things cost more in general (cost of business will be factored in). It's not a good thing.

If chargebacks are a significant issue for your business then you are doing something wrong.

Re: The madness of SaaS chargebacks

#43
post #9

We have very few chargebacks, not even 10 in 10 years and we consider us lucky. Stolen credit card happens more often than chargeback. I don't attribute it to better messaging or easier cancellation options, we do the same as many others, I guess it's just the type of product of customer. Even in HN comments I've seen people saying they use temporary card numbers (valid for one transaction only) or click a button to…

It just takes one bad experience. For me it was a local kids’ dance studio. I signed up through their portal, but my daughter didn’t like it. I forgot to cancel the recurring charge for a couple of months, no response to my emails. I filed a chargeback. The next month they charged me again, so I did another instant chargeback.

They finally reached out asking why. I told them we hadn’t even shown our faces there for months. But the following month they charged me again, and again I charged it back. This cycle repeated a couple more times.

Re: The madness of SaaS chargebacks

#44

I am curious if Apple Pay has the same chargeback issues for merchants.

I know for sure that if users start filing complaints against you with Apple, they can simply ban your account entirely and for long. Some companies never recover from that and end up shutting down.

Are you sure? I am not referring to Apple’s App Store, I am only referring to the Apple Pay payment mechanism, which presumably is a relationship between the payment processor and Apple.

The bank would still be the one dealing with chargeback and chargeback related costs, I do not see why Apple would care or get involved.

However, I wonder if the biometric verification of Apple Pay merits a different response to chargebacks where the bank will not simply take the buyer’s side.

Re: The madness of SaaS chargebacks

#45
I just created an account, and the subscription page in the app shows a $50 charge, while the public pricing page shows $10 with 'Minimum 5 seats' in small letters.

Your post says about $10 charge, I am not sure how it happened with current flow.

Be very direct about the pricing, and please use your own product so customers are not confused.

https://beeimg.com/view/d3295639248/

Re: The madness of SaaS chargebacks

#46
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is why my banking app does not show a "cancel subscription" button with the payment. When I click that button, the recurring payment is automatically canceled, and the SaaS company can check that and know that I unsubscribed. Or something along these lines. There is already a power-asymmetry between consumers and companies. This should not extend to unsubscribing. Here, the consumer should hav…

How would this be tooled? A chargeback, a deep link to the cancel page, an API connection between bank and subscription? Chargeback is easy because it's under the card co's control. Deep link would require knowing the cancel page of every sub, plus handling auth factors. API connection would two way integration, with scoped auth between every bank and every service. Hopefully managed by an SI or aggregator, but the b…

> How would this be tooled? A chargeback, a deep link to the cancel page, an API connection between bank and subscription?

I'd be happy to just have the ability to easily ask the credit card company block further payments with no actual notification to the business besides that the monthly charges stop going through. If you want to be fancy about it, creat a custom industry standard declination reason for that use case.

Re: The madness of SaaS chargebacks

#47
post #42
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Customers don't want to {blah blah blah} If this is the way it works and the result are chargebacks it just means things cost more in general (cost of business will be factored in). It's not a good thing.

If chargebacks are a significant issue for your business then you are doing something wrong.

As I mentioned in the article, this is extremely rare for us, but it has happened a couple of times. And that’s where I start having questions and frustration about the process itself.

I’ve shared examples in the article.

Re: The madness of SaaS chargebacks

#48
post #39
post #16

> What I don’t understand is why some people can’t just reach out and request it — instead of going straight to a chargeback. Customers don't want to "reach out" if it means hunting deep in their account settings to find the cancel button, or calling a number which may or may not lead them through an endless phone tree to waste 5 minutes talking with someone on the retention team reading from a script. People don't r…

> Customers don't want to {blah blah blah} If this is the way it works and the result are chargebacks it just means things cost more in general (cost of business will be factored in). It's not a good thing.

Yet the majority of businesses use dark patterns to avoid cancellations because it's hugely profitable to do so. Chargebacks are expensive, but the truth is that the majority of customers never leverage it, and often just endure years of paying for products they don't use. Maybe they tried to cancel to find that while they could sign up in seconds online, cancelling invariably requires a call (to a number that, wouldn't you believe it, has higher than normal call volumes!) into some maze of retention garbage.

What a world we would be if companies didn't want to bill customers that don't use their product. Imagine if companies automatically paused billing if you stopped using their product? Panacea.

Apple is a hugely greedy company, but it's one thing I like about subscribing to things in there -- I can cancel at any time with minimal effort.

Re: The madness of SaaS chargebacks

#49
It boggles my mind that this is a surprise. Let's start with this:

> What’s really going on here?

Reality. You need to prove something: that the card holder made the purchase to the standard the banks set and you can't. It's as simple as that.

> Why do banks completely ignore the terms customers agreed to when they subscribed or in cases where they’re clearly making false claims?

Because your agreement with the customer is not the only agreement in play. You accepted these chargebacks and that process when you accepted credit cards.

> And why aren’t customers required to provide any proof at all?

You can't prove a negative. I can't prove I didn't authorize payment. And, because it's online, you can't prove I did. "logs, screens, terms, full context" are not proof. None of that is useful or proof in any way that the card holder made the purchase.

> What actually prevents someone from using a SaaS product, filing chargebacks every time they cancel their subscription, and essentially getting refunded for the last several months of usage?

Credit card number limitations. Why would you accept a payment from the same credit card number again? Also, repeat offenders can be blocked by payment providers. This is the way a lot of online stores work.

> Would love to hear your thoughts.

A few more points...

> "The Madness of SaaS Chargebacks"

It's not SaaS chargebacks. It's just chargebacks.

> The worst part is that it doesn’t matter whether you win or lose a dispute — the very fact that it was filed still counts against your account.

Yes. The reason it counts is because you are problematic, or at least attract problematic customers. This ends up costing the banks money. I'm sorry, but if you had a problematic customer that cost more money than you made from them, you'd probably stop working with them, too.

> Still, we always submit evidence.

Not the evidence that matters. You need evidence that the card holder authorized the payment. I promise you, nothing you submitted proves that.

> Inside the product, we also provide a simple, self-service way to cancel the subscription without any questions asked.

Do you ask for the username and password? Right... and if I didn't sign up for the service to begin with, I didn't agree to the TOS.

Let's also address one more thing:

Facts:

> Charge was processed August 12 (regular billing cycle). > Subscription canceled August 18 (6 days later). > Dispute created August 19. > The claim is false.

Nope. The problem is when the person requested the subscription be cancelled. Not when your system recognized it.

> the customer doesn’t have to prove anything

The problem is when a customer requests you cancel their subscription, and you say you will, and you don't do it until 6 days later.=

The problem is when a customer goes to request to have their subscription cancelled, and your service is broken and doesn't recognize the cancellation and they don't realize it never cancelled until 6 days later.

I can keep going.

Let's try this: prove to me the customer didn't submit a request to cancel the subscription when they said they did.

That's right, you can't prove a negative.

I can keep going on, but you can find lots of information on this and why it is the way it is. If you don't want to deal with this, there are other options that eliminate or reduce the chance of chargebacks. But you won't find those as popular. Because they aren't customer friendly.

Re: The madness of SaaS chargebacks

#50
post #45

I just created an account, and the subscription page in the app shows a $50 charge, while the public pricing page shows $10 with 'Minimum 5 seats' in small letters. Your post says about $10 charge, I am not sure how it happened with current flow. Be very direct about the pricing, and please use your own product so customers are not confused. https://beeimg.com/view/d3295639248/

I appreciate your attention. Let me explain.

In the post I mentioned that we build several products. I didn’t want to list them all, because I always feel a bit awkward about self-promotion. My goal with the post was to spark a dialogue, not to advertise.

RE pricing page: yes, we do state that there’s a minimum of 5 seats. But there are no chargebacks here, since we don’t take a card upfront and we don’t bill in a hidden way. In the worst case, if you missed or didn’t read that detail, you can simply decline and not subscribe after the trial. You’ll see the price in Stripe before giving us your card. And if you prefer, you can stay on the free plan for up to 5 ppl.

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