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We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds

zettelkasten.de

41–50 of 188 posts

Re: We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds

#41
I agree with the point being made, even if it is taken to an extreme. I would say you don't need to remember everything, but you do need to have been exposed to it. Not knowing what you don't know is a huge handicap in knowledge work.

“Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.”

Re: We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds

#42

> The reduced engagement with the material reduces the emotional weight of the whole line of action. You mind is an engine that is fuelled by emotion. Without any emotion, you don’t think. Rather, you try to imitate thinking efficiently. This doesn't sound true and they don't seem to offer any support for the claim. There's a whole host of emotion-driven cognitive biases, where an effective counter is to reduce the e…

Isn't your argument a support of his claim? If emotions did not weigh on recall, surely there would be no "emotion-driven cognitive biases"

If the claim was "reducing the emotional weight of the action makes your thinking worse" – No.

Re: We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds

#43
I am sympathetic to memory-focused tools like Anki and Zettelkasten (haven't used the latter myself, though) but I think this post is a bit oversimplified.

I think there are at least two models of work that require knowledge:

1. Work when you need to be able to refer to everything instantly. I don't know if this is actually necessary for most scenarios other than live debates, or some form of hyper-productivity in which you need to have extremely high-quality results near-instantaneously.

(HN comments are, amusingly, also an example – comments that are in-depth but come days later aren't relevant. So if you want to make a comment that references a wide variety of knowledge, you'll probably need to already know it, in toto.)

2. Work when you need to "know a small piece of what you don't remember as a whole", or in other terms, know the map, but not necessarily the entire territory. This is essentially most knowledge work: research, writing, and other tasks that require you to create output, but that output doesn't need to be right now, like in a debate.

For example, you can know that X person say something important about Y topic, but not need to know precisely what it was – just look it up later. However, you do still need to know what you're looking for, which is a kind of reference knowledge.

--

What is actually new lately, in my experience, is that AI tools are a huge help for situations where you don't have either Type 1 or Type 2 knowledge of something, and only have a kind of vague sense of the thing you're looking for.

Google and traditional search engines are functionally useless for this, but asking ChatGPT a question like, "I am looking for people that said something like XYZ." This previously required someone to have asked the exact same question on Reddit/a forum, but now you can get a pretty good answer from AI.

Re: We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds

#44

The irony here is using fitness as an example of knowable things. Fitness guidelines is very much not a settled science, and is highly variable per individual beyond the very basics (to lose weight eat fewer calories than you burn, to build muscle you should lift heavy things). For every study saying that 8-12 reps x3 is the optimal muscle growth strategy there is another saying that 20x2 is better, and a third sayin…

They're very knowable, it's just that there's a lot more money in making things up

Re: We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds

#45
While I agree with the gist of the article, I think the AI example is poor, because we know AI can make stuff up and it's a problem. So this failure of AI to be reasonably correct weakens the argument. In the old days, you would rely on an expert (through say a book, like encyclopedia) to tell you this. The issue then becomes who you trust.

I would say your own knowledge is like a memory cache. If you know stuff, then the relevant work becomes order of magnitudes faster. But you can always do some research and get other stuff in the cache.

(Human mind is actually more than a cache because you also create mental models, which typically stay with you. So it's easier to pickup details after they get evicted, because the mental model is kept. I think the goal of memorising stuff in school should be exactly that - forget all the details, but in the learning process build a good mental model that you have for life.)

Re: We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds

#46

> You have to remember EVERYTHING. Only then you can perform the cognitive tasks necessary to perform meaningful knowledge work. You don't have to remember everything. You have to remember enough entry points and the shape of what follows, trained through experience and going through the process of thinking and writing, to reason your way through meaningful knowledge work.

I always tell people that I don't remember all the answers, only where to find them.

Re: We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds

#47

Before the internet I siloed knowledge that I could lookup to books. Don't worry, the kids will be ok.

Indeed, I thought that "decades old" sounds like an underestimate there: Socrates is said to have criticized writing for letting people to not train their memory, so that would be millennia by now. Though of course it is possible that the article's author would not agree with that, and would have a beef with more easily searchable content only, like the people who criticized tables of contents. I do not mean that they were all wrong though: probably the degree to which knowledge is outsourced matters, maybe some transitions were more worthwhile than others, and possibly something was indeed lost with those.

Re: We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds

#48
It's like with math. You could theoretically only memorize the axioms and rederive everything else on the fly.

But in practice, you don't have enough working memory or processing power to do that, so you'd be stuck with the math a few derivation steps above the axioms only.

To actually use math for problem solving, you need to memorize everything up to the bleeding edge, and to train yourself to operate on intermediate-level abstractions intuitively.

Re: We can’t circumvent the work needed to train our minds

#50
I was talking with somebody about their migration recently [0], and we got to speculating about AI and how it might have helped. There were basically 2 paths:

- Use the AI and ask for answers. It'll generate something! It'll also be pleasant, because it'll replace the thinking you were planning on doing.

- Use the AI to automate away the dumb stuff, like writing a bespoke test suite or new infra to run those tests. It'll almost certainly succeed, and be faster than you. And you'll move onto the next hard problem quickly.

It's funny, because these two things represent wildly different vibes. The first one, work is so much easier. AI is doing the job. In the second one, work is harder. You've compressed all your thinking work, back-to-back, and you're just doing hard thing after hard thing, because all the easy work happens in the background via LLM.

If you're in a position where there's any amount of competition (like at work, typically), it's hard to imagine where the people operating in the 2nd mode don't wildly outpace the people operating in the first, both in quality and volume of output.

But also, it's exhausting. Thinking always is, I guess.

[0] Rijnard, about https://sourcegraph.com/blog/how-not-to-break-a-search-engin...

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